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Author Topic:   what is feminism?
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 304 (411928)
07-23-2007 8:16 AM


The following is my Message #53 from the "vent your frustrations here" coffee house thread.
I am responding to Jon, who had previously stated that he hates feminists becasue they are "hypocrites".
I brought it over here to this new thread, since Omni, Crash, and Taz also seem to want to engage in discussion with Jon about his opinion of feminists and feminism.
I wrote:
You hate people who think that women and men should have equal access to all aspects of society?
Jon replied:
quote:
Oh... is that what you think a feminist is?
I replied:
Actually, that is the definition of feminism.
According to the National Organization for Women:
The purpose of NOW is to take action to bring women into full participation in the mainstream of American society now, exercising all privileges and responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men.
According to The Feminist Majority Foundation:
Feminism n. the policy, practice or advocacy of political, economic, and social equality for women.
According to the Feminist Majority:
Our mission is to empower feminists, who are the majority, and to win equality for women at the decision-making tables of the state, nation, and the world. The Feminist Majority promotes non-discrimination on the basis of sex, race, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, religion, ethnicity, age, marital status, nation of origin, size or disability.
The purpose of Feminist Majority is to promote equality for women and men, non-violence, reproductive health, peace, social justice and economic development and to enhance feminist participation in public policy. Feminist Majority supports workers' collective bargaining, pay equity, and end of sweatshops. We encourage programs directed at the preservation of the environment.
So, what is your definition of "feminism", Jon?
Is it similar to those of several major Feminist organizations, or is it quite different?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 11:27 AM nator has replied
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 07-23-2007 4:25 PM nator has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 2 of 304 (411954)
07-23-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
07-23-2007 8:16 AM


-ism
i neither want to discuss, nor defend jon's position on feminism.
that said, now is not the end-all be-all of feminism or the broader feminist movement. a feminist is someone who defines himself or herself as a feminist and that covers a rather large group of people including sizable groups of people who advocate rather dramatic shifts in how our world is built rather than the simple and respectable goal of equality.
i know we've had this argument before and i'd really rather not experience it again as it included nasty aspersions on my character as being "ivory tower" oriented (as though there's anything wrong with academia). but i do think it is important to mention in a thread of this title.
this site at colorado state u defines feminism as:
Feminism is the organized movement which promotes equality for men and women in political, economic and social spheres. Feminists believe that women are oppressed simple due to their sex based on the dominant ideology of patriarchy. Ridding society of patriarchy will result in liberation for women, men, minorities, and gays.
Patriarchy is the system which oppresses women through it's social, economic and political institutions. Throughout history men have had greater power in both the public and private spheres. To maintain this power, men have created boundaries and obstacles for women, thus making it harder for women to hold power. There is an unequal access to power. Patriarchy also includes the oppression of minorities and homosexuals.
and lists several varieties of feminist which differ greatly in their views and methods.
Radical Feminism
Advocates of Radical Feminism:
Mary Daly
Radical feminism promotes the basis for many of the ideas of feminism. They usually clash with the ideals of the liberal feminist, because radical feminists believe that society must be changed at its core in order to dissolve patriarchy, not just through acts of legislation. Unfortunately, this type of feminism also attracts a lot of negative media attention creating a backlash of feminism. Radical feminists believe that the domination of women is the oldest and worst kind of oppression in the world. They believe this because it spans across the world oppressing women of different races, ethnicities, classes and cultures. Radical feminists want to free both men and women from the rigid gender roles that society has imposed upon them. It is this sex-gender system that has created oppression and radical feminist's mission is to overthrow this system by any possible means. Sometimes radical feminists believe that they must rage a war against men, patriarchy, and the gender system which confines them to rigid social roles. They completely reject these roles, all aspects of patriarchy, and in some cases, they reject men as well.
Radical feminists emphasize their difference from men. They form groups that exclude males completely. This type of feminist highlights the importance of individual feelings, experiences and relationships. Radical feminists have divided into two groups with very different views.
Radical-Libertarian Feminism
Radical-Libertarian feminists believe that femininity and reproduction limit women's capacity to contribute to society. Women should essentially be androgynous. Radical-Libertarian feminists like to violate sexual norms and believe that women should control every aspect of their sexuality. They also advocate artificial means of reproduction so that less time is devoted to pregnancy and more time is devoted to worthwhile things. They are strong promoters of abortion, contraceptives and other forms of birth control.
Radical-Cultural Feminism
Radical-Cultural feminist views are dramatically different from Radical-Libertarian feminists views. The Radical-Cultural feminists believe that women should encompass their femininity because it is better than masculinity. Mary Daly advocates finding the “wild female within”. This type of radical feminist sees sex and penetration as male dominated. They see a link between sex, female subordination, porn, rape and abuse. These must be eliminated, according to Cultural-Radical feminists. Yet another opposing view is that reproduction is the source of power for women. They believe that men are jealous of women, and that they try to control reproduction through means of technology.
Liberal Feminism
Advocates of Liberal Feminism:
Betty Friedan
National Organization for Women
Liberal feminism was most popular in the 1950's and 1960's when many civil rights movements were taking place. The main view of liberal feminists are that all people are created equal by God and deserve equal rights. These types of feminists believe that oppression exists because of the way in which men and women are socialized, which supports patriarchy and keeps men in power positions. Liberal feminists believe that women have the same mental capacity as their male counterparts and should be given the same opportunities in political, economic and social spheres. Women should have the right to choose, not have their life chosen for them because of their sex. Essentially, women must be like men.
Liberal feminists create and support acts of legislation that remove the barriers for women. These acts of legislation demand equal opportunities and rights for women, including equal access to jobs and equal pay. Liberal feminists believe that removing these barriers directly challenges the ideologies of patriarchy, as well as liberates women.
Liberal feminists are responsible for many important acts of legislation that have greatly increased the status of women, including reforms in welfare, education and health. Unfortunately. Liberal feminism has been known to only concentrate on the legislation aspect in the fight against patriarchy. It has been criticized for not breaking down the deeper ideologies of society and patriarchy. Also, it has been criticized for ignoring race and class issues.
Socialist Feminism
Advocate for Socialist Feminism:
Alison Jaggar
Socialist feminists believe that there is a direct link between class structure and the oppression of women. Western society rewards working men because they produce tangible, tradable goods. On the other hand, women's work in the domestic sphere is not valued by western society because women do not produce a tangible, tradable good. This gives men power and control over women. Socialist feminists reject the idea that biology predetermines ones gender. Social roles are not inherent and women's status must change in both the public and private spheres.
Socialist feminists like to challenge the ideologies of capitalism and patriarchy. Much like the views of radical feminists, socialist feminists believe that although women are divided by class, race, ethnicity and religion, they all experience the same oppression simply for being a woman. Socialist feminist believe that the way to end this oppression is to put an end to class and gender. Women must work side by side men in the political sphere. In order to get anything accomplished, women must work with men, as opposed to ostracizing them. There must be a coalition between the two and they must see each other as equals in all spheres of life. In contrast to ideals of liberal feminism, which tend to focus on the individual woman, the socialist feminist theory focuses on the broader context of social relations in the community and includes aspects of race, ethnicity and other differences.
Cultural Feminism
Advocate of Cultural Feminism:
Carol Gilligan
Cultural feminists believe that there are fundamental, biological differences between men and women, and that women should celebrate these differences. Women are inherently more kind and gentle. Cultural feminists believe that because of these differences, if women ruled the world there would be no more war and it would be a better place. Essentially, a women's way is the right and better way for everyone. Western society values male thought and the ideas of independence, hierarchy, competition and domination. Females values ideas such as interdependence, cooperation, relationships, community, sharing, joy, trust and peace. Unfortunately, says the cultural feminist, these ideas are not valued in contemporary western societies.
Cultural feminists are usually non-political, instead focusing on individual change and influencing or transforming society through this individual change. They usually advocate separate female counter-cultures as a way to change society but not completely disconnect.
Ecofeminism
Advocate of Ecofeminism:
Vandana Shiva
Ecofeminists believe that patriarchy and male domination is harmful to women, as well as the environment. There is a link between a male's desire to dominate unruly women and wilderness. Men feel as though they must tame and conquer both in order to have complete power. Ecofeminists say that it is this desire that destroys both women and the Earth.
Ecofeminists believe that women have a central role in preserving nature because woman understand and are one with nature. There is a deep connection that men cannot understand between the Earth and women, hence the terms Mother Nature or Mother Earth. Women need to use their superior insight to reveal how humans can live in harmony with each other and with nature.
NOW may be a huge organization, but there are over 3 billion women on this planet that it may or may not represent. to disregard other feminist positions because they aren't 'mainstream enough' or 'popular enough' is really not a very solid ground.
jon's "hypocrites" claim may be related to the common claim that while women want to be paid and respected like men, they still want allowances to be made for their femininity or to be treated special. another option is (this is my gripe) that those who wish to overturn patriarchy only to replace it with matriarchy are not genuine in their desire for equality. if patriarchy is at fault for inequality and oppression, it is the hierarchy itself which is to blame, and not which genitals happen to lead it. by placing women in power over men, we will see only a switch in who is agressor, who is rapist, who is oppressor. this may sound like a theoretical approach and as baseless as any developed in an ivory tower, but it is brought to bear in all hierarchical systems in which women have risen to the top. in countries where corruption in leaders is the norm, women premiers have done the same, taking the government by coup and instituting the same strictures on society. some feminists would say this is because they are actually men (i think this means they have bought into the masculine system), but i think that it's really due to the flaws inherent in hierarchy.
do i think there is a chance of having a world without hierarchy? not bloody fucking likely. but it is important to be honest about where the problems lie qand what will and will not solve the problem. if women ruled the world, we wouldn't have causeless wars for a week of every month, but we would have wars and genocides and everything else just as often. girl bullies are no less onerous than boy bullies and aggression is a natural part of humanity that must be controlled no matter who is in power. claimin that feminism is sufficiently defined in the search for an Equal Rights Amendment is just as bad as claiming that math and science are evil and inaccurate because they were created by men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 07-23-2007 8:16 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 11:41 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 4 by nator, posted 07-23-2007 12:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 304 (411956)
07-23-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2007 11:27 AM


Re: -ism
jon's "hypocrites" claim may be related to the common claim that while women want to be paid and respected like men, they still want allowances to be made for their femininity
You mean the way men have allowances made for their masculinity?
by placing women in power over men, we will see only a switch in who is agressor, who is rapist, who is oppressor.
What's your evidence for this, exactly? In our society, something like 95% of rapes are committed by men. It's hard to imagine that being inverted if and when Nancy Pelosi becomes Speaker of the House.
Oh, wait, that already happened. I know Bill-O has been complaining about roving lesbian rape gangs, but I'm surprised to see you taking him seriously on that.
in countries where corruption in leaders is the norm, women premiers have done the same, taking the government by coup and instituting the same strictures on society.
Just because a woman is on top doesn't mean that patriarchy has been overthrown. It's entirely possible for a woman to be working within or even leading patriarchy.
claimin that feminism is sufficiently defined in the search for an Equal Rights Amendment is just as bad as claiming that math and science are evil and inaccurate because they were created by men.
Except that the first would be legislative policy that would have meaningful, positive repercussions for women in America, and the second is the kind of vapid dialogue that typefies "academic feminism."
I don't have a problem seeing the difference. I don't understand why you do.
do i think there is a chance of having a world without hierarchy? not bloody fucking likely. but it is important to be honest about where the problems lie qand what will and will not solve the problem. if women ruled the world, we wouldn't have causeless wars for a week of every month, but we would have wars and genocides and everything else just as often.
So we shouldn't even try to close the wage gap, or secure reproductive freedom, or correct the astoundingly broken American health care system, or any of the other very real issues facing women (and men) in our society?
Do you see why so-called "academic feminism" gets trashed so often? It's because you've essentially said that the problem is intractible and the movement is useless before you've even begun. If you're so adamant that the plight of women can never be improved, in what sense, exactly, are you any kind of feminist?
If this is the contribution of "academic feminism", Christ, who the hell needs you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 11:27 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 12:20 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2007 12:31 AM crashfrog has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 4 of 304 (411964)
07-23-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2007 11:27 AM


Re: -ism
For someone who "neither wants to discuss, nor defend jon's position on feminism", you do exactly that in your second to last paragraph.
quote:
NOW may be a huge organization, but there are over 3 billion women on this planet that it may or may not represent. to disregard other feminist positions because they aren't 'mainstream enough' or 'popular enough' is really not a very solid ground.
The point is, NOW represents many of the views of many, possibly most, American feminists. Furthermore, NOW's goals and positions are shared by lots of Americans who don't call themselves feminists.
Academia and feminist philosophy is all well and good, but it doesn't represent reality. It may have influence on certain feminist movement leaders, but if it doesn't resonate with everyday women with jobs, husbands, kids, and mortgages, it remains irrelevant.
Mainstream, populist, political-movement feminism of the NOW variety is more important than fringe-types of feminism, obviously. The feminists who actually live their ideals in the day to day are the ones who matter, not the people who sit and contemplate their feminist navels and then write books, pretty much for each other, containging many repetitions of words like "deconstruct" and "paradigm".
Oh, and why on earth do you think that NOW is mainly concerned with the passage of the ERA? They do much more than that.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 11:27 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 12:28 PM nator has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 5 of 304 (411966)
07-23-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
07-23-2007 11:41 AM


Re: -ism
You mean the way men have allowances made for their masculinity?
i wasn't defending it, just describing it in greater detail.
What's your evidence for this, exactly? In our society, something like 95% of rapes are committed by men. It's hard to imagine that being inverted if and when Nancy Pelosi becomes Speaker of the House.
Oh, wait, that already happened. I know Bill-O has been complaining about roving lesbian rape gangs, but I'm surprised to see you taking him seriously on that.
one woman as house speaker does not a matriarchy make.
Just because a woman is on top doesn't mean that patriarchy has been overthrown. It's entirely possible for a woman to be working within or even leading patriarchy.
absolutely. but there are large numbers of feminists who don't want to see women leading patriarchy, but overthrowing the system for matriarchy.
Except that the first would be legislative policy that would have meaningful, positive repercussions for women in America, and the second is the kind of vapid dialogue that typefies "academic feminism."
i wasn't discussing the usefulness of the ERA, but rather defining feminism as a movement as being restricted to the search for it. i would love an ERA. i also notice that after what about 30 years, NOW has failed to give it to us? but to restrict the definition of feminism and to only view as valuable in the discussion those who work in the vein of NOW is foolish and disempowering.
I don't have a problem seeing the difference. I don't understand why you do.
maybe you should read more carefully.
So we shouldn't even try to close the wage gap, or secure reproductive freedom, or correct the astoundingly broken American health care system, or any of the other very real issues facing women (and men) in our society?
oh yes, clearly that's what i was saying.
Do you see why so-called "academic feminism" gets trashed so often? It's because you've essentially said that the problem is intractible and the movement is useless before you've even begun. If you're so adamant that the plight of women can never be improved, in what sense, exactly, are you any kind of feminist?
i said nothing of the sort. i said that it's probably impossible for humans to live without hierarchy. i purposely stated that the failure to rid society of hierarchy need not relegate us to a continued existence of oppression. but you seem incapable of reading.
If this is the contribution of "academic feminism", Christ, who the hell needs you?
the contribution of academics is to inspire the public to problems which need to be addressed, and occassionally propose solutions. as academics, they are scholars. they can do nothing more than study and then vote and act as private citizens. it's not their job to fix your world any more than it is your job. and often, the solutions they do propose, the public simply isn't happy with. the purpose of an academic is to understand humanity and its place in the universe. the purpose of the private citizen is to change policy.
as any researcher will tell you, there are some questions to which we simply don't have answers. as a political scientist and a genocide scholar (note, not a feminist scholar), i was just today presented with an expansion of the democratic peace theory (the idea that democracies don't go to war with each other, and thus--one might hope--if all countries are democracies, then there will be no war) which proposes that democracies rarely participate in genocide. as thrilling a discovery as this may be, it's really rather useless at this point because we still haven't worked out the usefulness of the democratic peace theory and there are loads of problems with it. The first of these is what defines a democracy (academics have loads of fun with definitions, but language is defined by definitions, so it's an important discussion to have. as we have discovered in evc discussions, if you haven't got precise and commonly understood language and terms, you haven't got anything.) and what level of democracy actually maintains peace? does it only mean universal suffrage, or does it require, i dunno, an ERA? then of course we have to wonder if it is useful to have a theory that democracies won't go to war with each other if they will still go to war with non-democratic nations. my biggest problem with this theory is that the pursuit of it has not been coupled with a pursuit of a methodology for "converting" governments, that is encouraging democratic development in peoples and countries (not related to the idea of forcing democracy by invasion). rather indirectly, i'm actually pursuing that question in one of my current papers which pursues a practical approach to genocide recovery and prevention and democritization. i'm a very ambitious little scholar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 11:41 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 4:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 304 (411970)
07-23-2007 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nator
07-23-2007 12:10 PM


Re: -ism
For someone who "neither wants to discuss, nor defend jon's position on feminism", you do exactly that in your second to last paragraph.
i changed my mind and decided to discuss. i did not defend. but then, as you'll notice. my own gripe is directed specifically at some several of the fringe groups, so lay off.
The point is, NOW represents many of the views of many, possibly most, American feminists. Furthermore, NOW's goals and positions are shared by lots of Americans who don't call themselves feminists.
oh so american women are all that matter?
Academia and feminist philosophy is all well and good, but it doesn't represent reality.
you mean it doesn't represent the policy needs of american women. it's not supposed to. see my reply to crash.
Mainstream, populist, political-movement feminism of the NOW variety is more important than fringe-types of feminism, obviously.
it may be more relevant to current politics, but that does not make it more important. but you didn't ask what is politically relevant, you ask what feminism is. ask for what you want next time.
The feminists who actually live their ideals in the day to day are the ones who matter, not the people who sit and contemplate their feminist navels and then write books, pretty much for each other, containging many repetitions of words like "deconstruct" and "paradigm".
are you saying that feminist academics don't live out their ideals? or are you proposing that it's impossible to write a book and vote and email your congressman. further, fringe feminist groups are not necessarily restricted to the academic sphere. there are plenty of street level radical millitant matriarchists.
Oh, and why on earth do you think that NOW is mainly concerned with the passage of the ERA? They do much more than that.
the ERA would result in a solid victory for the economic and political goals of NOW. if NOW has suddenly become entranced with social and emotional incarnations of feminism (ie those not solvable by policy) i'm more than shocked.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nator, posted 07-23-2007 12:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 07-23-2007 1:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 304 (411977)
07-23-2007 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2007 12:28 PM


Re: -ism
quote:
oh so american women are all that matter?
In this conversation I am having with Jon, yes, since American women are likely the only sorts of women he has a great deal of interaction with.
I doubt he is talking about Guatemalan or Japanese or Russian femenists, but I could be wrong.
quote:
are you saying that feminist academics don't live out their ideals? or are you proposing that it's impossible to write a book and vote and email your congressman. further, fringe feminist groups are not necessarily restricted to the academic sphere. there are plenty of street level radical millitant matriarchists.
What I am saying is that the ideas that take hold with the housewives in Iowa AND the attorneys in Florida AND the performance artists in LA AND the construction worker husband in New Mexico are the ones that matter; the ones that will really make a difference.
quote:
the ERA would result in a solid victory for the economic and political goals of NOW. if NOW has suddenly become entranced with social and emotional incarnations of feminism (ie those not solvable by policy) i'm more than shocked.
Nothing is solvable by policy alone, and policy must also be a part of (or at least a result of) any mass social or cultural change.
But you didn't answer my question. Did you think that the ERA was all that NOW was concerned with, and if so, why did you think that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 12:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 1:26 PM nator has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 8 of 304 (411981)
07-23-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
07-23-2007 1:10 PM


Re: -ism
But you didn't answer my question. Did you think that the ERA was all that NOW was concerned with, and if so, why did you think that?
no, but i thought it an appropriate summation of the political and economic aims with which NOW has been most preoccupied.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 07-23-2007 1:10 PM nator has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 304 (412047)
07-23-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
07-23-2007 8:16 AM


More to Vent, not Debate...
quote:
Wikipedia:
Women can now avail themselves more to new opportunities, but some have suffered from the demands of trying to live up to the so-called "superwoman" identity, and have struggled to "have it all," i.e. manage to happily balance a career and family. In response to the family issue, many Socialist feminists blame this on the lack of state-provided childcare facilities.
Oops, looks like one that got away. More lunacy:
quote:
Feminists are often proponents of using non-sexist language, using "Ms." to refer to both married and unmarried women, for example, or the ironic use of the term "herstory" instead of "history". Feminists are also often proponents of using gender-inclusive language, such as "humanity" instead of "mankind", or "he or she" in place of "he" where the gender is unknown. This can be seen as a move to change language which has been viewed by some feminists as imbued with sexism - providing for example the case in the English language the word for the general pronoun is "he" or "his" (The child should have his paper and pencils), which is the same as the masculine pronoun (The boy and his truck).
Feminists are also liars. The above example demonstrates rather well. By using "gender" to refer to human beings instead of "sex"”as the bastards bloody-well know they should be”they try to put some sort of connection between physical sexual differences and gender differences in language. After they've brain-washed the populace into believing that they are indeed related, they proceed to beat the masculine gender out of the language on the grounds that its use constitutes a sort of sexism. All the while, they completely ignore the actual origin of words (history) and simply focus on decreasing a seemingly "male-dominance" in the language with a dominance that is clearly for the purpose of being female (herstory).
From here: (http://mensnewsdaily.com/...men-when-i-find-them-so-loveable)
quote:
I watched as feminists and domestic violence "professionals" slandered fathers under oath and stopped California's 2005 shared parenting bill.
I like your definitions of feminism, they are really sweet. But, they don't fit reality. Feminists are extremist man-hating wackjobs, but above all: hypocrites. So, while you posted the feminist organizations' self definitions to prove what feminism is, you did not post any of the things that those organizations actually do in reality.
There was a time when only women needed a voice as they gained equal footing. But that time has passed, feminism has overstayed its welcome, and most people I talk with agree. I've yet to have a teacher (aside from my two feminist professors) who didn't think that "fair sex" language use was just utter crap (which it is). Others I meet think feminists are just whiny no-gooders. The women I speak with can't understand for the life of them how the Hell anyone could hate men so damn much. See, they are normal, and like men in a romantic and sexual way similar to the way men like them... being normal humans and such. I can't figure it out either... and I am somewhat left to believe that it could be the reason Nems posted in his reply to my original message in the other thread: penis envy.
Anyway, since that thread was a VENTING thread, not a DEBATING thread, I really had no intention of debating my position, and just decided to clarify WHY I felt the need to vent, and figured I'd do it in this thread instead of in the old one. I don't plan on making responses to anyone here.
Jon

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Collin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 304 (412048)
07-23-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2007 12:20 PM


Re: -ism
but there are large numbers of feminists who don't want to see women leading patriarchy, but overthrowing the system for matriarchy.
Oh, for God's sake. Firstly, I don't think there's large numbers of feminists of any kind, which is sort of the problem. Secondly, the idea that the goal of any significant portion of feminism is to relegate men to second-class citizenship is just ridiculous on its face.
Maybe it's a function of the ignorance of academic feminism, but setting up a grand matriarchy isn't really the concern of any woman or man I know or have ever heard of. Out here in the real world, women are primarily concerned with their health, their access to contraception and abortion, and the fact that they're still making 70 cents for every dollar of their male colleages' paychecks.
At best what you're describing is some kind of internecine academic dispute that has fuck-all to do with the role of women in society.
i wasn't discussing the usefulness of the ERA, but rather defining feminism as a movement as being restricted to the search for it.
I notice that nobody has defined it that way. Exactly whose strawfeminist are you grappling with over there?
i also notice that after what about 30 years, NOW has failed to give it to us?
Well, I guess they were a little busy securing the right to an abortion, expanding contraceptive access, and improving workplace conditions for women.
In all that time, though, what has ridiculous do-nothing "academic" feminism got us? Analyses of Buffy the Vampire Slayer via Third-Wave feminist theory? Yeah, that's been a big help, thanks.
i purposely stated that the failure to rid society of hierarchy need not relegate us to a continued existence of oppression.
Actually, what you said was that the problems that women face are endemic to hierarchy; and that hierarchy in some form is here to stay. Hence, the problem is insolvable before you've even begun. Which is why academic feminism has done nothing at all to solve it.
the contribution of academics is to inspire the public to problems which need to be addressed, and occassionally propose solutions. as academics, they are scholars.
Which solutions, specifically, have they proposed? "Don't try to solve the problem; it's intractible?" Big help, that.
my biggest problem with this theory is that the pursuit of it has not been coupled with a pursuit of a methodology for "converting" governments, that is encouraging democratic development in peoples and countries (not related to the idea of forcing democracy by invasion). rather indirectly, i'm actually pursuing that question in one of my current papers which pursues a practical approach to genocide recovery and prevention and democritization. i'm a very ambitious little scholar.
That's all very special, I'm sure - but here on Planet Earth, Dorothy Aken'Ova is about to have her child taken away in retribution for her stance on same-sex marriage in Nigeria. Six international health workers have just narrowly escaped the death sentence after being falsely accused of innoculating children with HIV by the Libyan government, in retribution for the prosecution fo the Lockerbie bombers. Churches around the country are agitating for increased government persecution of gays and lesbians.
I'm sure that your little project is so very interesting. That's great, but it has fuck-all to do with feminism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 12:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 4:46 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 304 (412055)
07-23-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
07-23-2007 4:25 PM


Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
The above example demonstrates rather well. By using "gender" to refer to human beings instead of "sex"”as the bastards bloody-well know they should be”they try to put some sort of connection between physical sexual differences and gender differences in language.
Human beings have both sex and gender, I assure you.
After they've brain-washed the populace into believing that they are indeed related, they proceed to beat the masculine gender out of the language on the grounds that its use constitutes a sort of sexism.
Oh, God forbid the language change!
You must be a language perscriptionist. How cute. I think just about everybody goes through that phase, but I guess some people never outgrow it. I guess you probably still think that it's wrong to have split infinitives, too.
In the year 2007, people should know better to use non-inclusive language in formal writing. The feminist cops aren't going to descend upon you for saying "his" when you mean "their" in casual speech. But if you really think that the masculine pronoun is so inclusive, then I'm sure you won't find the construction "the teenager should have his tampons in his purse" at all awkward or unusual, yes?
All the while, they completely ignore the actual origin of words (history) and simply focus on decreasing a seemingly "male-dominance" in the language with a dominance that is clearly for the purpose of being female (herstory).
Wow, you really don't know anything about feminism, do you?
The "herstory" thing is a joke. Didn't you see, in your cite? Where the word is an ironic back formation?
Man, why the bee in your bonnet about back formations? When your buddy orders a cheeseburger at the Hardee's, do you kick him in the balls for ignoring "the actual origin of the word hamburger" in favor of his clearly dairy-supremacist attempt to pervert language?
Or is just when women do it that you act like a hard-on about it?
See, they are normal, and like men in a romantic and sexual way similar to the way men like them... being normal humans and such.
My wife is a feminist.
Stop and let that sink in. Surely that must be blowing your mind, right now. I mean, feminists hate men, right? But my wife married one?
Weird, huh? Gosh, what can we conclude from that?
Maybe that getting all your information about feminists from ridiculous "Men's news" sites is a little fucking ridiculous? That hearing about feminism from male rights activists isn't exactly giving you the whole picture?
But that time has passed, feminism has overstayed its welcome, and most people I talk with agree.
And you haven't stopped to consider that the fact that you fly into a torrent of ignorant filth at the very mention of the hated f-word might have something to do with that? That, when you go on another one of your boneheaded tirades against feminists, people are saying "yup, you're right, whatever you say, Jon" not because they agree with you, but just to get you to shut the hell up?
No, couldn't be that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 07-23-2007 4:25 PM Jon has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 304 (412056)
07-23-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
07-23-2007 4:28 PM


Re: -ism
Well, I guess they were a little busy securing the right to an abortion, expanding contraceptive access, and improving workplace conditions for women.
an ERA would have guaranteed us all those things in one step.
[q]sWhich solutions, specifically, have they proposed? "Don't try to solve the problem; it's intractible?" Big help, that.[/qs]
actually, i don't know. i'm not a feminist scholar. don't apply my thoughts to the field.
That's all very special, I'm sure - but here on Planet Earth, Dorothy Aken'Ova is about to have her child taken away in retribution for her stance on same-sex marriage in Nigeria. Six international health workers have just narrowly escaped the death sentence after being falsely accused of innoculating children with HIV by the Libyan government, in retribution for the prosecution fo the Lockerbie bombers. Churches around the country are agitating for increased government persecution of gays and lesbians.
I'm sure that your little project is so very interesting. That's great, but it has fuck-all to do with feminism.
actually, that's what i've been trying to tell you. i'm not a feminist scholar. i'm a genocide scholar with a real politik approach. i've got nothing to do with the whole thing. my study has dick all to do with Dorothy or her child. it has to do with preparing Rwanda to enter the world and giving the Rwandans a method of preventing yet another genocide in their country. but you can't seem to read that i keep saying I'M NOT A FEMINIST SCHOLAR.
but you're also too dense to realize my whole purpose in joining this conversation which i unfortunately should have figured was wasted before it began because you can't get your head out of your trophy vagina. feminism is not restricted to what you want it to be and it's certainly not restricted to the political current of women's rights.
but fuck you, i've had it. this is clearly a NOW rub-off session. nator ask for a definition of feminism. i provided an expanded definition which covered more than she or you allowed for and once again you got pissy and started calling me names. well fine. since i'm not valuable and neither are the women who have tried to pursue academic careers and research in the face of great discrimination and belittling, especially from those who call them "out of touch" like you, i want nothing to do with your feminism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 4:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 4:48 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 304 (412057)
07-23-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2007 4:46 PM


Re: -ism
since i'm not valuable and neither are the women who have tried to pursue academic careers and research in the face of great discrimination and belittling, especially from those who call them "out of touch" like you, i want nothing to do with your feminism.
My wife is pursuing an academic career - in the face of as much belittling - as a matter of fact. So you can take your smug sense of self-satisfaction - as well as your dripping contempt for people who actually get things done - and cram it right up your ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 4:46 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2007 4:57 PM crashfrog has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 14 of 304 (412062)
07-23-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
07-23-2007 4:48 PM


Re: -ism
My wife is pursuing an academic career
good for her. it's a pain in the ass. i had a prof tell me that i wasn't cut out to be a graduate student after i'd already had three very successful terms and perfect marks on a thesis proposal.
your smug sense of self-satisfaction
you mean like yours since you can't seem to think of any way to talk to me but as a women's studies student?
as well as your dripping contempt for people who actually get things done
i'm getting lots of things done. i'm writing a comprehensive policy plan for a recovering government and country. i vote, i write my congressmen, i sign petitions, i do all kinds of stuff. i just don't sit around saying that any single organization owns the word feminism.
but what you don't seem to get is that I'M NOT A WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST. there are plenty of those. i'm an activist of a far different breed. but i'm not stupid enough to believe that academic research is useless when compared to "really doing stuff". what does your wife think about your contempt for academia?
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2007 4:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2007 1:22 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 304 (412107)
07-23-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
07-23-2007 4:25 PM


Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
quote:
There was a time when only women needed a voice as they gained equal footing. But that time has passed, feminism has overstayed its welcome, and most people I talk with agree.
So, do you actually believe that women are treated equally to men in society?
Both here in the US and all over the world?
Women enjoy the same pay as men for the same work, for example?
If so, care to provide the evidence that supports your contention?
quote:
The women I speak with can't understand for the life of them how the Hell anyone could hate men so damn much.
Maybe they were raped by a man, or men, and are inappropriately blaming an entire gender for the actions of a few? Lots of women are raped, you know.
quote:
See, they are normal, and like men in a romantic and sexual way similar to the way men like them... being normal humans and such.
LOL, Jon, you make the silliest, most careless statments.
Didn't you read the message you are responding to? The mission statments/definitions of feminism of two of the largest and most influential feminist organizations in the country specifically state their wish to be in partnership and sharing responsibility with men.
How do you get "man-hating" from that?
Sure, there are fringe wacko feminists who hate men, but very few people care about or listen to them. The only ones who do are people like Rush Limbaugh, and you, apparently. You are doing what many idiot conservative pundits have done in the past and continue to do today; point to the extreme, out-there fringe of a large, diverse group, the majority of which are very moderate, mainstream, and do not hold the views of the fringe people mentioned, then treating the entire group as if they all held the views of the tiny minority fringe.
It's exactly of like saying that you hate all Muslims because every single one of them is a religious extremist terrorist.
quote:
I can't figure it out either... and I am somewhat left to believe that it could be the reason Nems posted in his reply to my original message in the other thread: penis envy.
Nice try at baiting me, but it won't work.
BTW, you provided both feminist me and my feminist husband, Zhimbo, a great laugh with that last attempt at a parting shot.
He just said to me after reading it, "Yeah, Juggs and Freud; Jon really is using some great sources to search the depths of the female psyche."
LOLOLOL!!!
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 07-23-2007 4:25 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by riVeRraT, posted 07-26-2007 6:36 AM nator has replied

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