Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8943 total)
40 online now:
dwise1, Faith, GDR, jar, PaulK, ssope (6 members, 34 visitors)
Newest Member: LaLa dawn
Post Volume: Total: 863,979 Year: 19,015/19,786 Month: 1,435/1,705 Week: 241/446 Day: 39/98 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 1 of 403 (327489)
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


There have been more than a few threads on the dreaded, volatile area of abortion. I've participated in one and I didn't find it to my liking much. Nearly lost Brennakimi as a freind in it (we made up later :)

But I have decided to ask a few questions for pro-chioce people. Pro-lifies and pro-choicies can participate, but I just have to nail these few inquiries:

1. Is Partial birth abortion murder? I am asking this because some say that a fetus isn't human until after it is born. If the fetus/baby is born halfway, is it human or not??

2. If a baby is halfway born (partial birth), is it called a "fetaby" or a "betus"??

3. Hypothetically, if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus, all the way to an embryo, is a human being, would you still support a woman's right to choose?

4.If your loveable dog is pregnant with puppies, but you dont want them and cant support them with your finances, would you abort the puppies, or give away or sell them to a family that has a desire for 'em?

5. If a Fetus is not human, would it be regarded as an animal, and if so, subject to animal rights?

6. If a baby is a baby after it comes out of the womans birth canal, then if a guy is making love to a woman, would he be a little less than human?

7. If it was made legal to end the life of a 1-10 year old kid if the parent/parents make that choice, would you be for or against it?

These are the questions I have. I dont have much time to debate a lot on this, yet I will try to respond when possible. I want to take a sit-back-and-let-the-missiles-demolish position. Pro-lifers and Pro-choicees welcome to debate. BUT PLEASE BE CIVIL, NO NAME CALLING, and TRY TO SHOW RESPECT FOR OTHER PEOPLES IDEAS

Thank you, and happy debatiing :)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 06-29-2006 12:59 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 7 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2006 1:33 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 8 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 1:34 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2006 1:38 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 06-29-2006 3:23 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2006 3:35 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2006 8:50 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded
 Message 52 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-16-2006 11:31 AM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 59 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-20-2006 11:01 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2006 3:38 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 2 of 403 (327492)
06-29-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


A question for you, LudoRephaim:

When did you stop beating your mother?

-----

Okay, no need to answer.

My point is that your choice of questions is slanted.
I won't answer hypotheticals, so I won't comment on them.

Personally, I treat the pregnant woman as a person, rather than a biological support system for a uterus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 12:51 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:07 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:18 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 3 of 403 (327493)
06-29-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
06-29-2006 12:59 PM


Kinda insultive question. I didn't mean to be insultive in my questions, just to make a person think about the subject. Just make a reflection, that's all.

BTW: I treat both the woman and the fetus/baby/thingofagig/sumtinoruther/whatchamacallit as people. But then again in the future they might make machines that are biological systems for breeding. We dont know.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 06-29-2006 12:59 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 4 of 403 (327494)
06-29-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
06-29-2006 12:59 PM


Slanted questions
Besides, slanted questions can be effectively answered.

NWR: when did you stop beating your mother?

Ludo: Never have. i'll sic the dog on her once in a while, but not beat 'er.

or:

Ludo: never did.

easy as pie. Or custard. Or burgers...

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 06-29-2006 12:59 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 403 (327495)
06-29-2006 1:22 PM


I have a question of my own. But before I being, I need to state my position on the matter to avoid the wrath of Khan... I mean crashfrog.

I consider myself a pro-lifer because I do consider the fetus a person. I also support women's right to have abortions because I don't believe I should have a say in the matter (being a dude and all). I say let the women decide, or even better let them fight it out.

My question is honestly a question because I honestly don't know. Please don't take this question as me trying to make a political statement. It's honestly not.

What most pro-lifers refer to as partial birth abortion is actually a very late term abortion where the about to be born fetus/baby is turned so the feet would come out first and then the brain is sucked out right before the head comes out. Because there is no brain, the skull collapses as it is squeezed out. And despite what a lot of people believe, this very late term abortion is very rarely performed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So far, I have not come across the answer to why this form of abortion is medically necessary. After attending a pro-choice seminar seeing 3 experts on the matter giving lectures on the social and medical issues surrounding the debate, I got to ask the lecturers this question. The answer they all gave was something like "if it wasn't necessary, doctors wouldn't have prescribe it."

Does anyone here know why very late term abortion is medically necessary?

Ok, I should explain why this question is important to me. Because I consider all life to be sacred, in an atheistic and masochistic kinda way, and since I consider a fetus to be alive, I have always thought that the fetus deserve some kind of chance for survival. I can't do anything about abortion in the first trimester if the woman wants to get rid of the parasite, and if the fetus can't survive on it's own then it's its fault. But if the woman wants to get rid of the parasite and if enough medical attention is given to the aborted fetus to let it live and grow, why not let it live and grow?


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:28 PM rgb has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2006 1:48 PM rgb has responded
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2006 8:47 PM rgb has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 6 of 403 (327496)
06-29-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-29-2006 1:22 PM


good question
Good question dude :)

I dont know the medical reasons why partial birth abortion is preformed (other than "practice" hehehe). And yes I do believe that it could be very rare, but I have no statistics at my beck-and-call at the moment.

BTW: funny khan-crashfrog comparison lol.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 1:22 PM rgb has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 403 (327497)
06-29-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


I think birth is an arbitrary although convienent cutoff for deciding when a fetus becomes a person.

Before I somehow offended Chiro, we seemed to be having a good discussion on the other abortion thread about criteria for determining consciousness.

ABE: Here were the messages
Message 14
Message 21
Message 40

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 12:51 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:36 PM Jazzns has responded

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 403 (327498)
06-29-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


LudoRephaim writes
quote:
1. Is Partial birth abortion murder? I am asking this because some say that a fetus isn't human until after it is born. If the fetus/baby is born halfway, is it human or not??

I don't know.

quote:
2. If a baby is halfway born (partial birth), is it called a "fetaby" or a "betus"??

Perhaps you would like to submit a suggestion to linguists to have a word be added to the language?

quote:
3. Hypothetically, if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus, all the way to an embryo, is a human being, would you still support a woman's right to choose?

This question is definitely slanted beyond recognition. This is like asking "if I grow two more arms and two more legs, would I still be a human being?" First of all, we need to define what a human being is. Thus far, noone has been able to come up with one that everyone can agree on.

quote:
4.If your loveable dog is pregnant with puppies, but you dont want them and cant support them with your finances, would you abort the puppies, or give away or sell them to a family that has a desire for 'em?

A) It costs more for the pregnant dog have an abortion than to raise the puppies.
B) This is assuming there are other families out there that want your breed of puppies.
C) You had the option to neuter or spade your dog. For the human world, this is called cruel and unusual punishment.
D) The selling of babies is called human trafficing.

quote:
5. If a Fetus is not human, would it be regarded as an animal, and if so, subject to animal rights?

I thought conservatives don't believe in animal rights.

Do you think a human skin cell an animal?

quote:
6. If a baby is a baby after it comes out of the womans birth canal, then if a guy is making love to a woman, would he be a little less than human?

Beats me.

quote:
7. If it was made legal to end the life of a 1-10 year old kid if the parent/parents make that choice, would you be for or against it?

I was never for abortion in the first place. Besides, most types of abortion is not actively or directly killing the fetus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 12:51 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:59 PM rgb has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 9 of 403 (327499)
06-29-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jazzns
06-29-2006 1:33 PM


Jazz it UP
Hey Jazzns :)

I remember Chirp having a debate with you on conscious. Was he saying that humanity is determined by consciousness? if so, if a person is knocked unconscious, are they a fetus LOL?


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2006 1:33 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2006 1:40 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6805
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 10 of 403 (327500)
06-29-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


Hello, Ludo. Long time since we've chatted.

Good post. The questions may be irrelevant to some people, but they really get to the heart of what I consider to be the important issues.

quote:
1. Is Partial birth abortion murder? I am asking this because some say that a fetus isn't human until after it is born. If the fetus/baby is born halfway, is it human or not??

2. If a baby is halfway born (partial birth), is it called a "fetaby" or a "betus"??


To me, what is important isn't whether an individual is born or not; it is whether it is a conscious, sentient being. I believe that it requires a few years of experience and interaction with the outside world to develop this consciousness; thus being "partway born" isn't sufficient to extend rights and protection to the individual. I do use birth as the cut-off, not because there is something magic about that moment, but because I don't know when after the birth the baby becomes a human being, and so I figure birth is a "safe" point.

-

quote:
3. Hypothetically, if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus, all the way to an embryo, is a human being, would you still support a woman's right to choose?

That is an interesting question. What if it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that a third trimester fetus really does have enough of what we call consciousness and so becomes more like what we would consider human? Arguments in law and ethics make extensive use of analogies, but I can't think of another actual situation in real life that is analogous to this; a human being is completely dependent on another for its very life; this dependence entails some health and social risks for the other person; this dependence is a temporary situation.

Personally, I would probably lean toward protecting the unborn human being in this case. If it were decided through a democratic process (I'm living in a fantasy land here, I realize) that the personal autonomy of the pregnant women still over-rides that of the unborn person, then I would continue to make my own preferences known, although I wouldn't go around harassing pregnant women.

-

quote:
4.If your loveable dog is pregnant with puppies, but you dont want them and cant support them with your finances, would you abort the puppies, or give away or sell them to a family that has a desire for 'em?

Not a good analogy. Not only are the health risks of pregnancy and birth less for a dog (the upright posture and big brains of humans are a source of many of the health risks of birth), but a dog does not suffer the social stigma of being pregnant or having given birth. Remember, it's not as if an unwed mother is rewarded for "choosing life".

-

quote:
5. If a Fetus is not human, would it be regarded as an animal, and if so, subject to animal rights?

I think that my reply to #1 and 2 answers this as well. However, let me add that this is the issue why I am a partial vegetarian. I have no moral qualms about eating fish because I believe that a fish's central nervous system is too "primitive' to support what we would consider a consciousness; if it could be proven to me otherwise, I would abstain from fish as well. On the other hand, I have little doubt that a chimpanzee has at least a rudimentary "human-ness", which is why I am against using chimpanzees in medical research, like I oppose the use of any involuntary human subject.

-

quote:
6. If a baby is a baby after it comes out of the womans birth canal, then if a guy is making love to a woman, would he be a little less than human?

Hahahahaha.

Well, as I have stated, the location in regards to the birth canal is irrelevant. However, maybe anyone caught in the grip of such a passionate moment becomes a little less than human. Heh.

-

quote:
7. If it was made legal to end the life of a 1-10 year old kid if the parent/parents make that choice, would you be for or against it?

As I said before, I don't know when a baby beomes human in the sense of acquiring human rights; I simply use birth as a cut-off because (a) I believe that before birth the infant definitely does not have a consciousness, and (b) after birth there is a period where the doubts increase, and so birth is the safest point at which to make this cut-off.

I found Practical Ethics by Peter Singer to be very influential; he uses this type of argument to discuss a range of contemporary social issues -- in fact, it was this book that convinced me to become a vegetarian. He himself discusses this type of situation. He acknowledges that according to his development, if a one or two year old infant can be shown not to be a "person", that is, not possessing what we would consider to be consciousness or sentience, then infanticide would be an acceptable practice.

This is the sort of interesting situation that shows how complicated real life can be. You can choose to base your sense of ethics and morality on your subjective feelings of right and wrong in each situation as it comes up. The problem with this is that not only will your moral code end up being inconsistent, but if we all did this, with our differing opinions and differing "feelings" of right and wrong, we have no way of deciding what stand we should take as a society on any issue.

Or you can try to figure out what fundamental principle or principles form the basis of your ethical code, and then try to work out your stand on various issues and situations based on this -- not only will this lend consistency to your own ethics, but if other people share similar principles then it becomes possible to decide how to we as a society should act in certain circumstances. However, as this example shows, when you take that route you will come to a point where it is not easy to take a definite stand that is consistent with what you believe to be your fundamental principle.


"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 12:51 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2006 1:51 PM Chiroptera has responded
 Message 16 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 2:49 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 11 of 403 (327501)
06-29-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 1:36 PM


Re: Jazz it UP
No, that is just as silly IMO as trying to define the personness of a fetus based on a comparison of its intellectual capacity and that of other animals.

My whole point was talking about criteria for consciousness, sentients, personness whatever you want to call it.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 1:36 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6805
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 12 of 403 (327503)
06-29-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-29-2006 1:22 PM


quote:
Does anyone here know why very late term abortion is medically necessary?

Well, often it is in the second or third trimester when the symptoms of problems begin to appear, or when it becomes clear that the fetus has some severe developmental abnormalities.

But a large number of third trimester abortions (I don't know how many) occur because a first trimester abortion is unavailable.

Many clinics, hospitals, and doctors do not provide abortions, so many women have to travel large distances to obtain an abortion. This requires taking time off from work, and it requires finding transportation, in addition to finding the necessary funds to pay for the procedure. Many states now have mandatory waiting periods; even if the waiting period is "only" 24 hours, this woman now has to be able to take two days off, and either find transportation for two days, or find a way to stay the night in the big city. And there is the stigma that gets attached to being an unwed mother, or even for a married woman having a pregnancy that she just does not want -- many women, then, go through a period of denial where they don't take the necessary actions. This really is a problem for poor rural women, and by the time many of them can arrange things, they are now in the third trimester.


"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 1:22 PM rgb has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 3:02 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 13 of 403 (327504)
06-29-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
06-29-2006 1:38 PM


I hope whatever I did to turn you off of our last discussion does not dissuade you from talking to me now. If I offended you I appologize.

As I said before, I don't know when a baby beomes human in the sense of acquiring human rights; I simply use birth as a cut-off because (a) I believe that before birth the infant definitely does not have a consciousness, and (b) after birth there is a period where the doubts increase, and so birth is the safest point at which to make this cut-off.

I can see how this discussion could turn into a slippery slope but what is the measurable difference between the potential for consciousness right after birth and the day before? I realize that you are expressing your opinion and that it is based on a tentative notion of what you believe is right but to me it still seems rather arbitrary.

For me I would probably pick 20 weeks gestation as my "comfort" zone for the similar reasons you listed above. But again it would be only based on what I think and not anything concrete. I would pick 20 weeks because that is closer to when we are pretty sure the brain starts working.

I guess I would feel much better if we could identify some more specific and diagnostic means of making a determination. Birth seems "dangerously" arbitrary to me.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2006 1:38 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2006 2:14 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 14 of 403 (327508)
06-29-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by rgb
06-29-2006 1:34 PM


good response
Good response dude. See, anybody can respond well to even slanted questions.

rgb writes:

This is assuming that there are other families out there that want your breed of puppies

True. I've given away mixed breeds of dog and bought pure bred puppies. There are many families and couples and singles out there that want a dog or cat. But then again there are a few breeds that are quite undesireable in appearance or behavior (the not so cute-looking xoloitzcuintli or Mexican Hairless, or the huge Brazilian Mastiff, which is agressive)

rgb writes:

First of all we need to define what a human being is

DNA could possibly help with that. The Biblical definition of bearing the "image of God" would work if religious definitions are needed. you can use other religious books as well if they have their own definitions. Dont want to leave other religious peoples and philosophers out.

taxonomic classification Homo Sapiens Sapienscould work, but you should add the other human species now extinct.

Homo Erectus
Homo Egaster
Homo Heidelbergensis
Homo Neanderthalensis

Could help that conundrum, but I doubt it.

rgb writes:

It costs more for the pregnant dog to have an abortion than to raise the puppies

What about if you raise them until they die of natural causes? I dont doubt that that kind of operation would chew youre wallet like a Crocodile (if they preform such operations) Do they actually do animal abortions?

rgb writes:

I thought Conservatives dont believe in animal rights. Do you think a human skin ceel is an animal?

That's just a stereotype. I happen to love animals more than most humans. I also support a clean environment and universal healthcare. But on issues such as this i am conservative.

Skin cells would be defined as a microorganism, not a animal in the macro sense or consumer sense. I dont think they are animals but a part of a whole living being. Of course the skin cell wont grow into a human like an embryo if left to it's own devices.

good responses.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 1:34 PM rgb has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 3:11 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6805
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 15 of 403 (327511)
06-29-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jazzns
06-29-2006 1:51 PM


quote:
I can see how this discussion could turn into a slippery slope but what is the measurable difference between the potential for consciousness right after birth and the day before?

What is the difference between birth and the day after? I suspect none. And the day after that? Very little. However, as time goes on, the doubts begin to grow. By one year, I suspect that the infant may not have a human-like consciousness, but I begin to be very uncertain. So I advocate putting the cut-off sometime during the period in which it is "safe". Birth is in that period.

Of course, you express qualms about this, even when you agree with the criteria that I am using. What we need is more information. It would be nice to know what consciousness really is, and what can be considered diagnostic of sentience. I don't know whether the cognitive sciences have anything to say on this as yet.

But whether we have the information or not, the only thing we can do, assuming we live in a democratic society (ha ha, well, I can dream, can't I?), is to have a reasoned discussion and debate on this issue and then use the democratic process to reach and implement a consensus on this issue.

Of course, that would not mean that the issue is closed. If you disagree with the consensus, hopefully you will have enough confidence in the process to continue to work to move the consensus closer to your values and opinions.


"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2006 1:51 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019