Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9175 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,617 Year: 4,874/9,624 Month: 222/427 Week: 32/103 Day: 1/11 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Homosexuality Vs. Heterosexuality
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 56 (145796)
09-29-2004 8:10 PM


This topic came up in another thread called "What is 'Intellectual Dishonesty'?".
Continuing where we left off...
Dan Carroll writes:
"I think it'd be great if you could explain how they're still together, despite your statement that the absence of God would prevent the union from lasting.
Their input shouldn't matter. They are homosexual... they are still together. Your earlier statement doesn't provide for any exceptions."
I value their input from the perspective that they have direct experience with the subject matter and can offer evidence to support or refute assertions made here.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 8:35 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-30-2004 10:10 AM dpardo has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7096 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 2 of 56 (145804)
09-29-2004 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dpardo
09-29-2004 8:10 PM


Well, my experience.
Both my partner and I are bi. While I had dated other women in the past, she had dated only men. What were these relationships like?
* One left her as soon as she became pregnant (she later miscarried)
* One left her little choice about whether they were going to have sex or not.
* One was terminally depressed and always self-effacing.
* One seemed more interested in using her to promote himself for a career than anything else.
Etc.
We've now been together for going on 5 years. I was the first person who ever gave her flowers; to me, it was such a little thing, but noone had done it for her. We can actually *cuddle* in bed without having to necessarily have sex shortly before or after. We act annoyingly cute with each other. We go on picknicks, and hold hands while stargazing. We hold each other when we're sad, and brighten the other person's day. We care for each other when we're sick. We sometimes leave all the lights off and light the house by candlelight. We keep things romantic. We take trips together. We're planning to have a child in a few years, should our finances work out right. In short, we meet each other's needs, and we love each other very much.
Feel free to ask any questions that you have; if you want to address any to the two of us, I'll try and check the board this evening when I get home, so I can ask her as well.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dpardo, posted 09-29-2004 8:10 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 09-29-2004 8:57 PM Rei has replied
 Message 4 by dpardo, posted 09-29-2004 9:03 PM Rei has replied
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 09-29-2004 10:27 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-30-2004 3:48 AM Rei has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1323 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 3 of 56 (145813)
09-29-2004 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-29-2004 8:35 PM


I'm sorry if this sounds stupid to you but
how do two women have sex?

-porcelain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 8:35 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 9:21 PM Trump won has not replied
 Message 8 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2004 9:56 PM Trump won has not replied
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2004 1:11 AM Trump won has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 56 (145815)
09-29-2004 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-29-2004 8:35 PM


Rei writes:
"...she had dated only men. What were these relationships like?"
* One left her as soon as she became pregnant (she later miscarried)
Was she married at the time? If not, why not?
"* One left her little choice about whether they were going to have sex or not."
A rape?
"*One was terminally depressed and always self-effacing."
Why was she involved with this guy?
Is she now in the state that she is physically attracted to women? Is she physically not attracted to men? Has she become sexually involved with you because you are comforting and loving her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 8:35 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 9:33 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 56 (145817)
09-29-2004 9:13 PM


I'm going off-line now and may not be able to respond to new posts till tomorrow.
Please note that it is not my intention to attack you (Rei) or that this thread become hostile.
I am interested in discussing the factors involved in your choice of lifestyle (insofar as you are comfortable divulging information), and other people's thoughts and views on the subject.

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7096 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 6 of 56 (145818)
09-29-2004 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trump won
09-29-2004 8:57 PM


Heh, its ok. To beat around the bush, you know all those things your girlfriend would like you to do for her?
That's how.
This message has been edited by Rei, 09-29-2004 08:34 PM

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 09-29-2004 8:57 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7096 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 7 of 56 (145821)
09-29-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dpardo
09-29-2004 9:03 PM


quote:
Was she married at the time? If not, why not?
Oh please, don't play this as if most Christians don't have sex before marriage, either. I can bring up state-by-state statistics on out-of-wedlock pregnancies, if you'd like - if I recall, the south was the worst.
Besides, she was raised by fundamentalist Christians, and was herself a fundamentalist Christian (that's changed, since the church rejected her after she came out) (she's now UU).
Lastly, this doesn't discuss the validity of same-sex relationships, which is the topic here. It was just an example to show how some people in straight relationships can be quite uncaring jerks.
quote:
A rape?
In a way. She never said no, but she doubted how much effect it would have.
quote:
quote:
"*One was terminally depressed and always self-effacing."
Why was she involved with this guy?
Because it didn't start off that way.
Are you thoroughly convinced that straight relationships are not all these nice and rewarding things, in the way that you claim that same-sex relationships aren't (despite having never been in one)? If not, I can talk about some of the relationships my straight sisters have been in, such as my younger sister's emotionally abusive first boyfriend, who even threatened to kill my parents once. Or I could mention my aunt, who just divorced her third husband, after she found that he had been using her identity in fraud schemes and writing bad checks in her name. I could go into friends also, if you'd like.
On the other hand, not all straight relationships go bad. My parents are still together, and going strong. My older sister, despite a rocky start with her husband, seems to be doing quite well. My younger sister's current boyfriend is a gem; I'm glad she got someone nice. Etc. I'm just trying to break down any illusions you might have as to your "one type of relationship is superior to the other" concept.
quote:
Is she now in the state that she is physically attracted to women?
She always was, but she was terrified of how her family would treat her (and as she later found out, with good cause. Her mother was fine, but some of her other relatives... weren't). Heck, friends even discouraged her when she'd merely cut her hair short. It was pretty conservative country.
quote:
Is she physically not attracted to men?
She's bi; this was already discussed.
quote:
Has she become sexually involved with you because you are comforting and loving her.
Our relationship started, really, after I was walking to her room with her after Chess Club one night. We hugged a bit too long before we parted... just one of those things. Each time I came over to her room, we got a little closer, ended up kissing... etc. We started going out a couple weeks later.
This message has been edited by Rei, 09-29-2004 08:37 PM

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dpardo, posted 09-29-2004 9:03 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 6:55 AM Rei has replied
 Message 17 by dpardo, posted 09-30-2004 12:57 PM Rei has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 8 of 56 (145827)
09-29-2004 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trump won
09-29-2004 8:57 PM


I take it you haven't stumbled into the gigantic part of the internet that is about sex.

*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 09-29-2004 8:57 PM Trump won has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 56 (145835)
09-29-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-29-2004 8:35 PM


and brighten the other person's day. We care for each other when we're sick. We sometimes leave all the lights off and light the house by candlelight. We keep things romantic. We take trips together. We're planning to have a child in a few years, should our finances work out right.
All these good sayings remind me of Christ!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 8:35 PM Rei has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 56 (145880)
09-30-2004 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trump won
09-29-2004 8:57 PM


I'm sorry if this sounds stupid to you but
how do two women have sex?
Just to make it unambiguous, generally they have oral sex, or toys are used to stimulate the clitoris/vagina.
In other words, women please women the same way men please women.
Seriously, people, why have it be a big mystery for the lad? Do we really want to raise more young men who don't know the first thing about pleasing women?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-30-2004 12:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 09-29-2004 8:57 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 56 (145896)
09-30-2004 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-29-2004 8:35 PM


Podnuhs
Rei, hows it going? I became interested in this thread by the name of it. My contention has always been that opposite genders compliment each other while same sex genders subliminate through each other, but don't take my conservative opinion as a put off. My question to you (and your partner) is what type of spirituality do you embrace? What is the meaning of life for you? What do you believe in as far as religion goes?(Besides a life of christian hypocrites annoying you)
Do you think much about IF God exists, how He wants to fit in to your romance? Or is spirituality more of a do-good humanist altruistic concept for you. Call me Curious...Phatboy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 8:35 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 4:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7096 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 12 of 56 (145899)
09-30-2004 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-30-2004 3:48 AM


Re: Podnuhs
Hi, Phatboy.
To us, religion has different meanings. I'm a humanist. I don't believe in God in any form. Now, that doesn't mean that I actively disbelieve in God; I just simply find no more evidence for God than I find for an invisible pink unicorn trapsing through my living room.
Elaine, however, is different. She was raised fundamentalist Christian, but has since become more of a general deist (and really, if anything, this was largely due to how her church treated same sex couples; even the more tolerant methodist church she started to, which had lots of gay and lesbian members, ended up estranging her when the pastor was prevented by the church from performing a committment ceremony for us). She goes to the local UU church, and is active in the young adults discussion group.
If I remember, I'll ask her tomorrow (she's already gone to bed) how she feels God fits into our relationship.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-30-2004 3:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5903 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 13 of 56 (145913)
09-30-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rei
09-29-2004 9:33 PM


Two things kind of bothered me about your posts in this thread.
The first is that it seemed you were saying that hetero relationships don't work whereas a gay one would. It seemed that way because the history you gave was of hetero misery until she found you.
It seems to me it could still have turned out the same if she met a guy as reasonable as you appear to be. Or it could have been just as disastrous if she had met a girl as unreasonable as all those guys.
Generally EVERYONE (gay or straight) has a history like that until they find a match (which works until that match begins to have problems).
If that's not what you meant, I apologize in advance.
The second, to the question of whether she had been raped, you said...
In a way. She never said no, but she doubted how much effect it would have.
This is personally offensive to me. She was not in ANY WAY raped, if she never said no or tried to get out of it.
It steams me to no end when people (and its usually women) try to play this game. Rape is RAPE. Men are NOT MIND READERS, and so a person's not WANTING to do something is not the same as putting up some form of resistance... which is what defines rape.
Unless she witnessed the guy killing some person who did not submit and so then she decided to submit without question, this was a case of her being weak and it should not be passed off as somehow the guy's fault as if he WOULD have raped her.
Sorry for getting edgy, but this is personal to me because I WAS sexually violated and with force. I said no and put up a fight. There is a big difference between saying something and putting up resistance, and going along with something you don't happen to like because you THINK something might happen.
Ironically enough there are women who like to play rape fantasies and expect the guys to act like that. I knew two and one actually dumped me for not being aggressive enough. In both cases I was not supposed to ask first. Indeed I was not supposed to have been told that's what they wanted, which caused its own problems. The expectation of mindreading catches guys coming and going.
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-30-2004 06:44 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 9:33 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-30-2004 10:14 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 44 by Rei, posted 09-30-2004 4:21 PM Silent H has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 56 (145962)
09-30-2004 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dpardo
09-29-2004 8:10 PM


I value their input from the perspective that they have direct experience with the subject matter and can offer evidence to support or refute assertions made here.
Your only assertion was that a gay couple couldn't last, because their relationships exist outside holy scriptures. The existence of long-term gay couples refutes this.
What else, exactly, do you want?

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dpardo, posted 09-29-2004 8:10 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by dpardo, posted 09-30-2004 1:03 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 56 (145963)
09-30-2004 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Silent H
09-30-2004 6:55 AM


The first is that it seemed you were saying that hetero relationships don't work whereas a gay one would.
If you check out dpardo's posts from the other thread, he was saying that a heterosexual relationship is the only way to go if you want things to last. I'm gonna take a guess that all Rei meant was "that's funny, because my girlfriend's hetero relationships didn't work, and her homosexual one has."
If I'm wrong she can correct me, but that's the reading I took from it.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 6:55 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 09-30-2004 11:33 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024