Holmes Crashing

This isn't about crashfrog exactly, but I should start there. While I liked crashfrog, and indeed every once in a while still respect what he has to say, he has over the course of time appeared to get more and more frantic in his posts, and horribly bitter towards me.His latest tirades have been about my posting, and how everyone views my posts here at EvC. His first claim was that no one ever reads my posts because they are too long. When corrected on this fact, at least by one person, he stated:1) Holmes posts irrelevancies, he heads off on tangents, he refutes positions that no one involved in the thread has advocated,2) he takes three paragraphs to say what could be said in one.3) Holmes mostly posts filler, garbage. The meat of his posts is often few and far between.I freely admit that I have an issue with verbiage and indeed have a "disorder" which makes me repeat myself (usually three times). I don't see how that removes clarity, nor creates "filler garbage", though clearly a person may get weary reading some of the same arguments, reworded and rearranged. Frankly I had hoped I was improving on that (first writing and then weeding out repeats).But some of my posts do take time and after my operation I don't feel like I have quite so much time to waste. This is especially true if my posts are generally unread and unappreciated.So I want to know if the above analysis of my writing is shared by most people at EvC. Thanks in advance for whatever your response. And also, if anyone has anything negative to say about crash, please do not put it here. This is about me figuring out whether its worth sticking around.

hah - since you are the only poster to ever get a reply off me that is longer than 4 sentences (it had references and everything) - I'd would hope not*.While I tend to mostly lurk on the threads that you are active on, I find your posts most interesting and I don't see them as overly long or verbose ((but then I spend my days reading and writing academic papers so I may not be the best judge in that respect).More power to your keyboard I say.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 21-Aug-2005 05:35 AM

You know this may be a topic in and of itself. I too spend my days, and at this point have for almost two decades spent my days, reading and writing academic papers as well as professional legal and scientific ones.Could that end up being a bad thing in public discource? Is it something one has to unlearn?Or conversely, is it a deficit on the part of the public that many cannot handle length of discussion, particularly developing an argument using evidence and logic?I've sometimes wondered if that is what separates me from some of my detractors... or perhaps society?In any case, thanks for the support. (AbE: I should add that I have particularly enjoyed your arrival at EvC. You have a certain wit that agrees with me).This message has been edited by holmes, 08-21-2005 05:40 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

i'm sorry, i stopped reading here.(just kidding. couldn't resist ) points 2 and 3 are actually the same. i'm a huge fan of irony. i have sort of the same problem. my first year and a half at college was writing-intensive. in fact, so writing-intensive that i flunked out of that particular school. but i developed the habit writing alot, and quickly. not in excess, exactly, but an appropriate length. but when i actually went to take freshman english (a joke class i tested out of at the previous college) we had to write 500 words essays.i CAN'T write a coherent 500 word essay. every essay i turned in for that class was in the 600-750 word ballpark, and that was trying to write as little as possible.this manifests itself here as the tendency to reply to someone's points -- ALL of them. individually. sometimes at length, and repeatedly. for instance, my last reply in the great debate, if formatted double-spaced mla would be 9 pages in length. i think i wrote it in about 40 minutes to an hour.speaking of which, i should bump that soon. mr ex seems to have disappeared. his week deadline (his rule, not mine) is three times over today, i think.oh yes, so ok, back on topic.just ignore crash. he's just trying to mess with you; your posts are fine. mine, on the other hand...

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אָרַח

It's because you act like an ass when we discuss.There, I said it. It's how I feel. You're so absolutely obsessed with being right that you twist even the clearest, least ambiguous posts, you bury your opponent in refutations of points they didn't make, and somehow, consistently fail to make your positions absolutely clear.Just as an experiment I'd like you to post to your child abuse thread and try to summarize what you think my position is, in one or two sentences. (And no, it's not "Holmes is wrong." )Holmes, I have nothing against you personally. I'm sure you're a great guy and if you're even passing through Columbia it would be a very, very great honor for me to buy you a beer. But our debates of late are universally very, very frustrating because for every one post where I actually say something I have to write ten explaining to you exactly what I said.

If you write a post directed towards me I will read it. I appreciate your opinions and what you have to say. I think you are one of the most valuable members here. If people don't want to read a reply because "it's too long", you can't help that. I wouldn't worry at all. I don't notice you repeating yourself ever. Thanks for being on this website.

Your posts are much appreciated. IMO it is definitely worthwhile for you to stick around.

Let me throw in my support here too. Your posts are generally among the more well thought out posts to be found here. Clearly, everyone who comes here has a different style of writing that reflects their particular brand of thinking and this is a natural occurance on an informal message board.I will agree that your posts are long, but they have rarely, if ever, seemed unnecessarily long to me. You seem committed to backing up your statements of opinion or fact with the evidence and reasons you feel the way you do. I think this is an admirable trait even if it can create a lengthy post.

I mostly lurk these waters (have to keep the number of simultaneous discussions I participate in to a minimum), but my impression of your style is quite favorable. As a Dane I enjoy that your point of view is often a bit tweaked from the standard US bias (Do I remember wrong or do you live outside the US).I do not find your posts overlong, though I have skipped quite a lot of them, but then agin I skip quite a lot of posts no matter if they are long or short.You seem to be coolheaded, and to the point - what I remember anyways.Well consider this an endorsement.As for Crashfrog I also remember him quite favourably, actually both of you are included on the list of people, where I make an effort to look at the reads they start./Soren

quote:

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No one ever reads my posts because they are too long.

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Speaking for myself, if I am interested in the topic then I will read your entire post -- I am grateful for the time you spend to include the detailed arguments and facts that you do. I truly enjoy your posts, and I think that you are an asset here at EvC. I would truly hate to see you "dumb down" your writing.

So far it seems people feel my posts are not generally too lengthy, nor errant, and indeed somewhat worthwhile.I just realized that posts to this thread may end up sounding like a giant back slapping party, and indeed oblige me to keep writing "oh yeah I like you too" in response which eventually will make it look like I am making it up. This is not to mention the potential of alienating someone if my response is not as positive as I might give for someone else.Its going to be easier for me to make one statement pertaining to all. Here it is...I find most posters are valuable here, even those I might disagree with. Some people may have a few bad habits, especially on specific subjects, but few are consistently bad to a degree that I would find their posts not worthy.Thus unless I say something overtly negative in response, you can assume I also like your writing and find you valuable (personally as well as for the site). And that means even if you tell me my posts usually are crap.And in any case, no one has to feel they need to stroke my ego and tell me how good I am, as I am more concerned with making sure I am not coming off as making the practical errors I have been accused of, or coming off as unuseful even if entertaining.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You are correct. I currently live in the Netherlands, however for a time (years back) I lived in Denmark.It was one of the first major culture shocks... though shock may be the wrong word for it... that I ever experienced. It made me realize that some cultural and political thoughts I held could actually exist outside of my head. I definitely knew I wasn't in the US anymore, and wished more US citizens could see what they could have if they only lifted their expectations about life.Not sure what its like now (the Netherlands has gone to hell over the last three years), but I hope it is still reasonably free.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I want to make something clear. This is not a thing where I felt insulted and so I want my ego stroked by others telling me how great I am, or you telling me you still like me in some way. If this was about personal issues, then I wouldn't have opened this thread at all.The idea is if your practical criticisms were correct, then there is little value for me to be spending the time I do into posting here. There is a huge world out there and plenty of other things for me to be doing. The only reason for my continued posting is based on an assumption I have basic, yet critical, writing and logic skills down so that I can contribute to debate while working out fine tuning issues with my writing.Thus when you say: and This suggests I have a problem with basic skills and my posts are not contributing to anything for anyone else.I don't care what anyone feels about me (in this specific context), and in fact everyone could say they personally hate my guts and wish I would leave. The important thing would be whether they felt my posts were clear enough and on target such that they were not generally long, rambling, offbase garbage.If the latter descriptions were the case with my posts, I could just as well enjoy EvC as a spectator, as there are plenty of people here whose writing I really like to read.I guess I always felt I don't have to be a poster to be a "member". The point of posting is for a member to make a point worth making and advance debate for everyone else. Spectating membership has the advantage of taking less time, which has become an issue with me recently.Thus your position has been made clear on my practical abilities. It was done so vociferously and "analytically" that I am now interested how others view my practical abilities. From their responses I can judge how to use my time here appropriately.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I know. I didn't want anyone to think that our troubles stem from personal animosity, or that they've entered that area. If you enjoy the discussion then, as far as I'm concerned, it's every bit worth your time to post here. Just because we can't seem to communicate doesn't mean that you can't communicate with anyone at all.It was wrong of me to assert that literally everyone felt the same way about your posts, and for that I apologize, deeply. That was a mistake and an insult to you and it was uncalled for. We've both seen that that's not the case, although plenty of people, though they haven't posted in this thread, agree with me, as well. You're under no obligation to be worthwhile to all persons. As far as I'm aware this is a recreation. If it stops being fun then stop doing it. If it's still fun, I hope you'll stay.I chose a personal moratorium on replying to you because our discussions ceased to be enjoyable and became acrimonious and frustrating. And I apologize for how that frustration influenced my replies to you. That was unfair to you and wrong of me. If, as you've said, you have nothing more to say to me in the threads we've been discussing, then I guess we're back to the moratorium, as I'm satisifed with what I've posted to you so far.I hope you'll continue to participate here as you have an incisive intellect and a unique, interesting background. Discussions between us simply don't work for some reason but, oddly enough, you're still a poster who's work I keep an eye open for. It's too bad we're back to the moratorium but I hope this time it's predicated on an understanding and politeness instead of frustration and harsh words.Agreed?

I would agree with crash that sometimes you get unnecessarily harsh in your arguments, and that sometimes those arguments run on for too long, but those criticisms could just as well apply to me sometimes. I certainly hope you don't quit posting here. You're one of my favorites, whether I agree or disagree with you.You consistently have some of the most well-reasoned positions of anyone here. I know that you and I get really pissed at each other once in a while, but that's okay. We each have a tendency to be intolerant of bullshit, and when either of us perceives (rightly or wrongly) bullshit coming from the other, then the gloves seem to come off immediately. Perhaps we should both work on that a bit, but please don't leave this forum.

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"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005