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Author | Topic: More Christians in prison? May be not. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
bob_gray Member (Idle past 5040 days) Posts: 243 From: Virginia Joined: |
I have heard several times here at EVC that there are more Christians in prison as a percentage of the population than atheists. I did a little investigation and while I don't fully trust either of these websites I think there are some valid points made.
This site is the one which talks about the 0.209% of prisoners being atheists Page Not Found - HolySmoke! .There is another website which is a rebuttal of these statistics Homepage - adherents . The first website doesn’t have much to say except that 0.209% of prisoners reported being atheist in 1997 while 8 — 16% of the population is atheist. I expect that this is where the statistic originated. The second site indicates that some of those numbers may be a bit misreported. They say that about 9.5% of the population is atheist/agnostic/nonreligious, which is consistent with the numbers above but the prison data has approximately 20% of the prison population not saying anything about their religious affiliation. Should these people be counted as nonreligious? Does it seem reasonable that people with strong religious convictions would be more likely to answer a question about their beliefs than someone who was ambivalent? It seems to me likely that you would find more atheists in that nonreporting populous than religious people.
quote: The webpage has more information but in the interest of brevity I won’t detail all of it. I don’t doubt that people with religious affiliations commit crimes at the same rate as nonreligious/atheists. I’m just not convinced that they are more likely to be involved in crime. If someone has better sources please provide them.
moved by the Queen
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
I think you have a very good point there. Now I think we need to see all the available published material on this.
The interesting number to me is what percentage are None
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
You cannot be forgiven unless you have first committed a crime. Maybe there's a certain group of folks that feel a very strong need to be absolved. And maybe the drive to confess may also play into the equation. Or maybe just certain kinds of people are more likely to get caught. I doubt this has anything to do with regional colloquialisms though.
Peace. Ab.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
There is another complicating factor. Where do the figures for society as a whole come from ? And if as is likely they also include a number that of no identiifed religion, how does that figure compare ?
With any if these comparisons it is important to compare like with like so far as is possible. I think that more data is needed to reach a firm conclusion
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It seems to me likely that you would find more atheists in that nonreporting populous than religious people. Atheists aren't just people who lack religion, they're people who lack a belief in God. There's a whole lot of Americans that believe in God but say they're not religious. I think it's a mistake to conflate the words "nonreligious" and "atheist." But yes, I'd like to see some better statistics, too.
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fnord Inactive Member |
To complicate matters further, here's what one J.P. Holding said about this (on http://www.tektonics.org/spinney01.html), btw answering a very interesting article from Jacob Spinney (see http://www.jacobspinney.com/tomshort.htm):
Here we go again, with another Skeptic citing stats about atheists being a small part of the prison population. I'll correct that again: As it happens prison inmates profess faiths for many reasons other than true belief: 1) It permits special visits. 2) It often allows certain priviliges, including breaks from normal work schedules, or the ability to "stand out" in a crowd of people who dress and live the same every day. 3) The religious buildings have AIR CONDITIONING. 4) When filling out forms, most don't know they can leave the question of religion blank. 5) The religious buildings have AIR CONDITIONING. 6) The religious buildings have AIR CONDITIONING. Actually most "theist" inmates are for all intents and purposes deists in orientation.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One of the other problems is that the two sets of statistics are from two different sources, so comparison is dubious, more so than for statistics in general.
The 20% 'no answer' is the margin of error at best, especially if there are circumstances that would make an inmate reluctant to declare a faith. I have seen this before on another board, and my final take on it after much discussion, is that the numbers that profess to be christian are the basically the same inside and outside the prison system, certainly within the margins of error for both sets of statistics. What you can say is that there certainly is no visible or marked reduction in prison population that would be due to a higher moral code such as christians tend to claim. To me this is a refutation of any claim to better morals, but then I believe that morals are driven more by social conventions and basic reason than by faith. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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bob_gray Member (Idle past 5040 days) Posts: 243 From: Virginia Joined: |
crashfrog writes: There's a whole lot of Americans that believe in God but say they're not religious. I think it's a mistake to conflate the words "nonreligious" and "atheist."
I agree completely. And while I think the statistics may not be revealing I think that RAZD has the right idea (which I'm sure you will agree with) when he says:
RAZD writes: To me this is a refutation of any claim to better morals, but then I believe that morals are driven more by social conventions and basic reason than by faith.
Since this statistic is often brought up to counter the erroneous claim by Christians that we would all be better off if the laws were all based on Christianity (insert your favorite flavor here), if all people were Christian, and so on, I think that it would be just as useful to say something to the effect of, "There is no difference between the numbers of Christians and non-Christians in prison clearly being Christian doesn't make you less likely to commit a crime". Like RAZD it has been my experience with people I have met that their adherence to the law is typically not driven by the punishment factor but rather what falls in line with their own personal moral code. Since I find that atheists/nonreligious people seem to have a more balanced moral code since it comes from self reflection than simply from some arbitrary interpretation of some ancient book I would be more likely to believe that they would behave more equitably toward their fellow man in most situations. A case in point are the numerous discussions going on about homosexuality and marriage. You merely have to look at which side is looking for equality to see who is on the higher moral ground (at least that is my opinion).
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
The statistics are unclear - this much is true.
However, I would predict a lower atheist prison population based on two other statistics: 1. Education correlates negatively with prison population.2. Atheism correlates positively with education.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Mr.Jack writes:
And then we have the phenomenon known as "Jailhouse Conversions." The statistics are unclear - this much is true.However, I would predict a lower atheist prison population based on two other statistics: 1. Education correlates negatively with prison population.2. Atheism correlates positively with education. I am a volunteer at a Youth Dentention facility. I see many repeat offenders at the young ages of 16,17. These kids have families that often have had Uncles in prison, Dads in prison, often a majority of the family in fact. Jack is right in that atheists are better educated. If I ask a college kid about Jesus, they go off on a rant proclaiming that "more wars have been fought in the name of God than virtually any other cause"...and that the Jesus myth of the Gospels was fabricated by a politically motivated Church/State ruling class who wished to opiate the masses. When I ask a young uneducated urban youth about Jesus, they want to pray and reach out to Him. I remind them of a scripture in Corinthians: NIV writes: This sits very well with them. While I am not discouraging education as a means of improving their world view and circumstances in life, I encourage them by reminding them that they are much better off relating to God and allowing Him to raise them up than they are attempting to raise up by themselves. They simply lack the morality to accompany the power which they have and are not afraid to use. This power is birthed in the anger and the curse of a whole class of people. BTW, will Wiz and a few of the Christians here pray for these youth? Thanks...I DO believe in the power of prayer. 1 Cor 1:18-24 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-22-2004 04:24 AM
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I encourage them by reminding them that they are much better off relating to God and allowing Him to raise them up than they are attempting to raise up by themselves. You take a bunch of high school drop outs and tell them that they cannot acheive anything through their own efforts and you're proud of this. Fucking hell.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Now hold it a minute, Mr. Jack! You have not dealt with juveniles such as this have you? I am one of the More effective of the volunteers that pass through those locked doors. These kids need reprogrammed! They have nothing but the warped values that their incarcerated families have given them...as well as the gangs that they were in. I DO encourage them to focus on studies and education, but they first have to see themselves through a perfect forgiving Father rather than a judgmental crackhead or ex con. There are many stories of young men who have gone on to finish High School and get honest jobs that we have on file at YFC. I beg you to know the field that I know before judging me on my methods.
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