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Author Topic:   I hate being right
nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 119 (46070)
07-15-2003 8:57 AM


Now that all of this Iraq crap is shaking out, I can't help but notice that all of our conservative Bush-supporters seem to be very, very quiet.

Winston, Red Vento, Gene?


Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Percy, posted 07-15-2003 11:57 AM nator has not yet responded
 Message 16 by DBlevins, posted 07-15-2003 10:52 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 85 by NoniNeil, posted 12-22-2003 9:24 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 97 by gene90, posted 12-23-2003 3:21 PM nator has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2 of 119 (46081)
07-15-2003 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
07-15-2003 8:57 AM


Schraf - you don't hate being right nearly as much as those folks hate you being right....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 07-15-2003 8:57 AM nator has responded

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 Message 3 by nator, posted 07-15-2003 10:08 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 119 (46083)
07-15-2003 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
07-15-2003 10:06 AM


LOL!

I guess so.

They shouldn't hate me, though. I'm just the messenger.

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-15-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 940 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 4 of 119 (46097)
07-15-2003 11:48 AM


I visit several message boards and they are all the same - not a single comment about what's been happening from the war supporters.

Of course I am not keeping quiet.


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 5 of 119 (46100)
07-15-2003 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
07-15-2003 8:57 AM


Okay, I'll be the token Bush supporter! But I'll do it in my own way.

I don't understand all the shock and upset about the evidence for WMD. Of course there wasn't any evidence. Had there actually been persuasive evidence of WMD then the US would have confidentially shared the evidence with France and Germany, and they would have joined the coalition. Since France and Germany did not join us, there must have been no convincing evidence of WMD, and we've known this since before the war began.

There are two things about the WMD that I *do* find surprising. The first is that we not only haven't found any recent evidence of WMD, we can't even seem to find any old evidence. This seems very strange, since we absolutely know Saddam used to have them since he used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds. Where are the old factories, storage depots, training facilities, etc? Could they really have been eradicated so thoroughly? If so, maybe we should hire Saddam (I hear he's still alive) to do toxic waste cleanup here in the states, because he's apparently *really* good at it.

The second thing I find strange is that many Iraqi units were found well equipped with gas masks, chemical suits and chemical antidote. Why would they burden their units with all this equipment if not for protection from their own chemical weapons? It doesn't make sense.

So my view is that we had insufficient evidence of WMD when we went to war, and therefore the war was wrong (and we're going to pay for it with the "peace"), but that they nonetheless exist out there somewhere.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 11 by Primordial Egg, posted 07-15-2003 4:59 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-15-2003 8:49 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 07-16-2003 12:52 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 22 by derwood, posted 07-22-2003 12:57 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 119 (46101)
07-15-2003 12:07 PM


And just in case anybody's still keeping score...
  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 7 of 119 (46130)
07-15-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-15-2003 11:57 AM


Percipient writes:

quote:
The second thing I find strange is that many Iraqi units were found well equipped with gas masks, chemical suits and chemical antidote. Why would they burden their units with all this equipment if not for protection from their own chemical weapons? It doesn't make sense.

Um, you're ignoring the obvious:

They were worried about us using them on them.

Yeah, our government talks a good talk about not having chemical weapons, but why on earth would anybody believe us?

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 119 (46134)
07-15-2003 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rrhain
07-15-2003 3:29 PM


In principle I agree that the US government has hardly been a model of trustworthiness ...but if you are in Europe and see some of the governments here in action...they are hardly in much of a position to criticise the honesty (or intelligence) of anybody either....it is like the entire G7 group plus Russia agreed to a competition to see who could produce the crappiest government in the shortest amount of time...Germany is certainly a frontrunner ....it will probably end up in an 8 way tie.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mark24, posted 07-15-2003 4:27 PM Mammuthus has responded
 Message 13 by Rrhain, posted 07-15-2003 7:55 PM Mammuthus has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 9 of 119 (46137)
07-15-2003 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
07-15-2003 4:16 PM


Mammuthus,

Britain would get runners up prize (if not an outright win) for "most unnecessary tiers of beaurocracy".

Mark


This message is a reply to:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 10 of 119 (46141)
07-15-2003 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mark24
07-15-2003 4:27 PM


Sorry mark..I would have to bet on Germany for beaurocracy...I think they invented it...they certainly mastered inefficiency...but as an American living here..I can criticise both my government and theirs and get away with it
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 119 (46143)
07-15-2003 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-15-2003 11:57 AM


quote:
I don't understand all the shock and upset about the evidence for WMD. Of course there wasn't any evidence. Had there actually been persuasive evidence of WMD then the US would have confidentially shared the evidence with France and Germany, and they would have joined the coalition. Since France and Germany did not join us, there must have been no convincing evidence of WMD, and we've known this since before the war began.

The war was ostensibly fought over the issue of WMD (remember Hans Blix?) - many observers imagined this was just a pretense at the time and so it has proved. The shock for me is the openness and the lack of shame by which the Governments seem to be saying "we deceived you". Whether the end justified the means is another matter entirely, but if any self respecting democratic Government fabricated the truth about say, the economy, heads would surely have rolled. And now, I hear, they'll be mortgaging Iraqi oil to pay for the war - are we still supposed to believe this wasn't about oil?

quote:
There are two things about the WMD that I *do* find surprising. The first is that we not only haven't found any recent evidence of WMD, we can't even seem to find any old evidence. This seems very strange, since we absolutely know Saddam used to have them since he used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds. Where are the old factories, storage depots, training facilities, etc? Could they really have been eradicated so thoroughly? If so, maybe we should hire Saddam (I hear he's still alive) to do toxic waste cleanup here in the states, because he's apparently *really* good at it.

I guess finding any WMD in Iraq is a poisoned chalice. If we don't find any then we would have gone to war under false pretences. If we do find WMD, it of course means that the US / UK imposed sanctions, acknowledged to have been responsible for the deaths of in excess of 500,000 Iraqi children, were for nothing.

Sobering thought.

PE


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 119 (46159)
07-15-2003 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Primordial Egg
07-15-2003 4:59 PM


So, given the Iraq experience, what credibility is there for the concerns about North Korea and Iran which are gradually being ramped up?
This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 13 of 119 (46162)
07-15-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
07-15-2003 4:16 PM


Mammuthus responds to me:

quote:
In principle I agree that the US government has hardly been a model of trustworthiness ...but if you are in Europe and see some of the governments here in action...they are hardly in much of a position to criticise the honesty (or intelligence) of anybody either.

I don't recall mentioning anybody in Europe.

The question was why the Iraqi soldiers had chemical suits and countermeasures for chemical weapons. The presumption was that the Iraqis were preparing for blowback from Iraqi use of chemical weapons.

My response was that there is another possibility: The Iraqis were preparing for chemical weapon attack from the United States. Given the history of duplicity from the United States, there is a not insignificant number of people outside the US who is certain that the US does have chemical and biological weapons.

And what better way to use them than against a country whom you claim is illegally making them? We can simply claim that they were fired by the Iraqis and they got caught in their own weapons. And if there were an investigation, it would be carried out by the heathen Westerners, headed by the US, and they'd just cover it up and agree with what the US told them to say.

And given what we have just found out about our government's use of false information as justification for going to war and invading another country, who can blame them for thinking just that?

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
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Autocatalysis
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 119 (46166)
07-15-2003 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-15-2003 11:57 AM


I find strange is that many Iraqi units were found well equipped with gas masks

The Iraq military may have had the legitimate fear that the US would use chemical weapons. Its not like they don’t have suspicions of the US. Irrational as it might seem to us.

We have the same story with government deception in Australia. The Howard government is getting quite good at it. its overtime for a new government here.

But at least I don’t live in Indonesia. I dot know if it made the news in your part of the world, but the Indonesians just let a bunch of terrorists implicated in the Bali bombing escape. Apparently all the officials involved just took bribes and opened the prison doors!!!! Talk about corruption. That has to take the cake.

It ‘s all very distressing. I was totally against the war on Iraq. I just don’t think the human toll sheet will balance out better with war. If the reason was regime change, all I can say is half the countries in the world need that, not the least of which is Australia. But in all seriousness look at the daily atrocities perpetrated in Indonesia. The US won’t have a bar of engaging Indonesia. Even after the slaughter of Timor. They stood on the fence. To give you an idea of how evil the military is up there, during the rebuild of east Temor wood was bought from a timber company, a company owned by the Indonesian military. This company logged the timber illegally from west Papua. It just bizarre, the perpetrators on the profit sheet again. For some time the Indonesians have been transporting pigs into the highlands of west Papua. An innocent critic might assume that they are merely buying up land of local chiefs at suitable prices. Australian scientists wonder why all the pigs carry Japanese encephalitis, among other Flavivirus. Ahh…I have had my rant…


This message is a reply to:
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Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 119 (46171)
07-15-2003 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mammuthus
07-15-2003 4:55 PM


yeah, both your governments suck
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