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Author Topic:   Yet another example of the hidden costs of Bush's Stupid War
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 43 (404360)
06-08-2007 11:42 AM


The biggest problem I have been yelling about regarding Bush's Stupid War is that it was obvious from long before day one that the biggest result would be the misdirection of limited resources from things we need, like maintaining our infrastructure.
Here is the latest example.
The Coast Guard is considering dropping Marine Weather Forecasts.
The problem is that the equipment is old, unreliable, no longer made, and even spare parts are getting near impossible to find.
To continue making marine weather broadcasts, the system will have to be replaced.
Sheesh.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2007 12:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 4 by iceage, posted 06-08-2007 12:59 PM jar has not replied
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 1:00 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2 of 43 (404365)
06-08-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
06-08-2007 11:42 AM


The source does not give any reason related to the war. It appears to me that they are asking the public for input into whether this capability is useful enough to go through the expense of overhauling the system. It also appears this system has been degrading for quite some time and the issues pre-date the war.
So where does the war come into play here?
And please Jar, don't go froggy on me and accuse me of being some sick war advocate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2007 12:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 43 (404367)
06-08-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AZPaul3
06-08-2007 12:02 PM


Wow. I thought you were being obtuse in the other thread. Amazing.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 4 of 43 (404368)
06-08-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
06-08-2007 11:42 AM


I disagree with the term "Bush's Stupid War". Not the stupid part, but the part attributing to Bush. American's (not this American) overwhelming supported the war at the beginning. We own this mess.
I would support legislation that would require a "war tax" to be imposed at the onset of any major military action. Choices made without consideration of the costs (economic free environment) typically are very bad choices. The support for the war would be been different if a cost was associated in the near term - maybe a .20 gas price hike.
When considers the opportunity costs associated with this war it is disheartening.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 1:03 PM iceage has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 43 (404369)
06-08-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
06-08-2007 11:42 AM


WTF are you talking about jar?
There is no mention of there being no resources available for upgrading the weather forecast system.
They are only seeking advice on just what technology they could use, before they even seek the funds.
Before seeking funds for this undertaking, the Coast Guard must gather evidence relating to how frequently, and under what circumstances, the maritime community uses the various types of HF radio weather broadcasts. In addition, it would be helpful for the Coast Guard to learn about current and future needs of the maritime community with regard to receiving weather forecasts and warnings over HF radio, and what alternatives are being used or might become available. Please see the Federal Register announcement for detailed information about this request for comments.
IT is possible that HF radio may not be the best source for weather forecast anymore, and to replace them would be a waste of money.
Read the article, it's all there.
Yea, war is stupid, but so was this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 2:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 6 of 43 (404370)
06-08-2007 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iceage
06-08-2007 12:59 PM


maybe a .20 gas price hike.
Since the war is probably half about oil, that doesn't seem like a bad idea.
I wonder just how far along we could have been in alternate fuel technology we would have been, if we would have spent the money we spent on the war, on research instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by iceage, posted 06-08-2007 12:59 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 43 (404373)
06-08-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iceage
06-08-2007 12:59 PM


Fickle opinions
iceage writes:
I disagree with the term "Bush's Stupid War". Not the stupid part, but the part attributing to Bush. American's (not this American) overwhelming supported the war at the beginning. We own this mess.
I recently read an interesting perspective on public opinion, which I will share: (From Dr. Hanson of the Hoover institute at Stanford)
The discussion was about the Iraq war and whether or not it was winnable.
He said that 70% of the American populace have no basic political ideology or loyalty to any political philosophy and therefore have views that are always changing. It's not what they think, but how they feel. Hanson went on to say that the radical change in the opinions of a majority of Americans about the war had to do with perception. If there is a perception of victory, they will support it. If there is a perception of failure, they will bail.
He seems to make sense to me in that public opinion is quite fickle.
I guess it all boils down to what people are prepared to put up with.
Edited by Phat, : edit

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 43 (404374)
06-08-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AZPaul3
06-08-2007 12:02 PM


The stupid war(s)
So where does the war come into play here?
The Stupid War comes into play because resources are limited, and what we waste on the absolutely pointless and stupid war cannot be used for other purposes.
Oh the Stupid War is not the only problem. The policies begun under the Criminal Ronald Reagan play a bigger part in the deterioration of our Nation, our Infrastructure and National Defense.
There is no way around the fact though that money spent on the Stupid War cannot be used for other purposes.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 9 by Phat, posted 06-08-2007 2:01 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 43 (404375)
06-08-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
06-08-2007 1:57 PM


Re: The stupid war(s)
I agree with you that the war is a black hole for tax dollars, which could be better spent elsewhere.
I always thought that you were a conservative, though. Reagan was a conservative, as were the Bush dynasty.
Our best fiscal president of the last twenty years has been Clinton.
Are you an Eisenhower conservative?

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 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 1:57 PM jar has replied

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 Message 11 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 2:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 43 (404376)
06-08-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by riVeRraT
06-08-2007 1:00 PM


There is no mention of there being no resources available for upgrading the weather forecast system.
They are only seeking advice on just what technology they could use, before they even seek the funds.
If we hadn't be wasting money on the Stupid War we could have been upgrading the system all along.
The problem is since the Administration of the Criminal Ronald Reagan, we have been diverting resources for the National Defense and Wellbeing. This latest Stupid War is just the most recent example.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 1:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 06-08-2007 2:09 PM jar has replied
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 4:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 43 (404377)
06-08-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
06-08-2007 2:01 PM


Re: The stupid war(s)
Reagan was a conservative, as were the Bush dynasty.
Reagan was no Conservative, he was an actor playing the part of a conservative. His job was to portray a conservative so that the Christian Cult of Ignorance would never notice that their pockets had been picked and that the US was sold to Industry.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 43 (404378)
06-08-2007 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
06-08-2007 2:01 PM


Jar writes:
The problem is since the Administration of the Criminal Ronald Reagan, we have been diverting resources for the National Defense and Wellbeing. This latest Stupid War is just the most recent example.
Do you think this ties in with Eisenhower's dire warnings concerning the rise of the Military Industrial Complex?
Here is an excerpt from Eisenhowers farewell address...perhaps one of his best speeches:
farewell address writes:
We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States cooperations -- corporations.
Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 2:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 43 (404379)
06-08-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
06-08-2007 2:09 PM


Not directly. The Military-Industrial Complex, as seen by Ike, has been subsumed by Industry. Today the Military is little more than funding source for Industry.
The biggest blow to the US in the last half-century or so was not Pearl Harbor, not 9-11, but the concept of deregulation of the Utility Industry. Since then, we have simply seen a continuation of the growth of Big International Business to the point where even governments such as the US are but part of the supply chain.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 43 (404396)
06-08-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
06-08-2007 2:01 PM


If we hadn't be wasting money on the Stupid War we could have been upgrading the system all along.
That may or may not be true jar, but your link (my personal home page) does nothing to show that. Only that the system is old. You've done some serious dot connecting, and while your at it, you can show us where Santa really lives.
It may be old for many reasons, including it's reliability. But since that is not the case anymore, we need to replace it.
I think I just heard the sprocket on a ten speed going backwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 2:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 06-08-2007 4:25 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 43 (404398)
06-08-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by riVeRraT
06-08-2007 4:15 PM


the whole infrastructure is old
and it is old for a reason. The reason is that money needed for upkeep has been wasted on stupid things like the War in Iraq.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 4:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 6:53 PM jar has replied

  
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