Consciousness and Dreams

In another thread cavediver talked about Roger Penrose and his research involving consciousness. After poking around on a number of web sites this one seemed to give the best breakdown of his research.Page not found | Stuart Hameroff, MDTo be completely frank I don’t have the academic background to understand much of what he is saying but I do find the bit that I do understand to be very interesting.In thinking about consciousness I started to wonder where and how dreams fit in. While asleep there is a degree of consciousness but at the same time our dreams are not generally affected by the physical reality around us.What really puzzles me is this. When I’m wide awake and close my eyes, I’m not able to clearly visualize physical images. I can retain the knowledge of what I have seen but I can’t replicate with any clarity the act of actually looking at some physical object.However, when I’m asleep with my eyes closed I seem to regain a form of vision. I’m able to recognize people, objects are recognizable and I can visualize myself in a form of time and space even though what I’m seeing doesn’t appear to conform to any physical reality.It seems that when I’m asleep that I have a form of vision that isn’t available to me when I’m awake.I’m wondering if there is anyone on the forum, who has studied dreams that can provide an explanation for this.I suppose this could go in "Is It Science" or maybe the "Coffee House".

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Dreaming is mainly a phenomenon of the REM (rapid eye movement) sleep phase, during this phase of sleep (which last about 90+mins) the brain in a state of activity that is very similar to when awake but we are paralysed (thus some people suffer sleep paralysis). But we don't really know for sure where in the brain, or even why, we dream.The pons neurons are very active during REM and it has been suggested that what we perceive as a dream is just an attempt to make sense of these neural signals (i.e. we perceive this activity as sensory input; activation-synthesis theory). Others believe that dreams are the result of memory consolidation or activity of the systems of memory. Then of course we have all the freudian theories, Mark solms' theory could be classed as one, he suggests that dreaming is derived from frontal lobe activity.Most mammals and birds dream, but dolphins do not. It's thought to be related to the developmental phase (i.e. dolphins are born fully functional).I like the developmetal hypothesis, dreaming is a way to prepare and develop the brain - what we perceive as a dream is merely an attempt to make sense of neural activity (activation-synthesis but not just pons derived activity). It fits with Penfield's findings with epileptics - electrical stimulation of the outer cortex produces a similar experience to dreaming.So there is no clear answer.edit: here's a link to a Jim Horne article, he's a sleep researcherLoughborough University | Page not foundand a quote from Solms... Field of dreams | Science | The GuardianThis message has been edited by melatonin, 02-18-2006 09:57 PMThis message has been edited by melatonin, 02-18-2006 10:01 PM

How do you know that you're not dreaming right now?

It would be interesting to discuss how to determine consciousness and it's direct effect on reality, but at the same time, my experience of this forum is that many pretend physicists never advanced this explanation.This message has been edited by randman, 02-18-2006 11:51 PM

I think the simplest explanation is that you haven't trained yourself to have very good visual recollection. With practice, though, it's a skill you can develop. It's something artists and writers do; being able to picture things in your head that you can't actually see is important in a lot of professions.

I think that training as an artist would do might help, but I still contend that when I'm conscious I'm able to have memories of what something or someone looks like but I'm not able to actual form a picture in any way that resembles what I see when I open my eyes.When I dream however I am able to visualize things in pretty much the same way that I can when I'm conscious with my eyes open. It seems to me that it is somewhat similar to so called out of body or near death experiences. Frankly I haven't really read up on it but I've heard of many accounts of people who are clinically dead and are able to view their own body and it's surroundings. I agree that in the case of dreams we aren't viewing physical reality in the way that someone having an out of body experience would be, but we do see clear images in both cases.I both these instances we are able to see objects in aproximately the same form as we do with our eyes without actually using our eyes.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This is an interesting subject , one i have been attempting to understand myself for a while . I wonder is anyone here has heard of the term "Lucid Dream" ? It is supposedly a state of dreaming where your conscious self somehow becomes fully aware that it is dreaming , due to doing some form of reality check such as holding ones breath etc. Supposedly , when one becomes fully aware that they are infact dreaming , they are conscious of this , and can fully percieve their dream , and on some levels , can control them , manipulate their dream world and do things which arent possible in waking life .I have spoken to many people who tell me they have achieved this state in their dreaming , i have also tried to attain lucid dreaming but have been unsuccesful sofar . Apparently a good way to get on the road to this is to increase your dream recall , by keeping a dream journal where you describe everything you can remember in your dreams . Slowly you begin to remember more and more dream details , and at some stage you may be lucky enough to have the sense to do a reality check and have a Lucid dream . But sofar i have only increased my dream recall a bit .

You're definitely a goldmine of info. One thing I had never heard... Do you have any direct links to such info/research? How do they determine that dreams do not occur, and does this also go for other aquatic mammals?

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

I suffered from nightmares or perhaps even night terrors as a child, and was taught this in order to get rid of them. I did not need to make a journal but then again I usually had good dream recall.The key for me was to try and remind myself as I was going to sleep that I was falling asleep and to realize that as new things began to happen. There was also sort of a confidence building thought process that I can try to control my dreams to gain power in them.Although I was never able to stop my nightmares from coming on, I became very good at lucid dreaming and could change what happened within them. Dreams became more of a second life, and even nightmares could be fun in a horror movie sort of way, and they can be turned into something else as you see them coming.I'd suggest preparing yourself to "wake up" within your dream, sort of like setting an alarm to go off inside your head before you are supposed to actually wake up. If it works you'll find yourself wondering if you are in a dream or realizing that you are, quickly try to alter something within it. If you don't your control will slide away. If you do and succeed, your control will grow. I think the side effect is you'll remember more of your dreams, rather than memory driving control.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Hey holmes,here's a link to some research on mammalian sleep. What they look for is the EEG pattern of REM sleep (and also EMG/EOG/behavioural), so far no REM activity has been observed in dolphins and whales.Just another nugget, I think the platypus has the largest proportion of REM sleep. This info was used to discredit the theories suggesting REM was important for learning and memory, thus if it was, dolphins should be pretty dumb and platypus very smart. Also, tricyclic anti-depressants almost negate REM phase sleep and people can go without REM for months/years without any real cognitive deficits. Clues to the functions of mammalian sleep | NatureEdit: I'm trying to find a link to another article that questions this notion of no REM in aquatic mammals.Edit: I think this article talks about a different interpretation whale sleep behaviour...Here's their conclusion... Lyamin, Manger, Mukhametov, Siegel & Shpak (2000).Rest and activity states in a gray whale. Journal of Sleep Research 9 (3): 261-267 SEP 2000They suggest that this species of whale showed some very slow, small movements of the eyes and some jerking movements which suggest some very short phases of REM may occur but it does not have the characteristic REM mammalian pattern.Edit: here's an article on REM and learning by Seigel..Page not found | Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human BehaviorEdited to add info and correct typos.
This message has been edited by melatonin, 02-19-2006 09:52 AMThis message has been edited by melatonin, 02-19-2006 09:55 AMThis message has been edited by melatonin, 02-19-2006 10:05 AMThis message has been edited by melatonin, 02-19-2006 10:34 AM

Well, right. Because your brain is disconnected from the visual stimulus from your eyes.If you were suddenly blinded, you would probably be able to percieve your visual imaginings with the same clarity that you view your dreams. Well, firstly, it's important to understand that people who claim to have these third-person visions while "dead" aren't actually seeing the physical reality around their body; they're having a dream. Their mind is actually inventing details about the situation based on things they've seen before. I imagine that you or I, after a lifetime of seeing doctors and surgery on TV, could probably imagine pretty well what it would we would look like under the knife from a few feet in the air, especially if we were conscious as we were wheeled into the room in the first place, which is common. We see with our brains as much as we see with our eyes; why is it so surprising that our brain, absent sensory input from the eyes to the visual cortex, would interpret stimulation of the visual cortex as sight?

Hi melatonin,I won't have time to look at the articles for a while, but I wanted to ask a quick question that seems relevant.All the mammals that you described as having limited REM sleep are aquatic. Since in REM sleep you're both paralyzed and your sensory systems are severely dampened, how would this even work for aquatic mammals?In other words, it seems impossible for aquatic mammals to have that kind of sleep; wouldn't they die? They have to breathe, and there's nowhere to hide. But clearly I know little about such animals.If that was the case, then I'd expect aquatic animals would necessarily have a different mechanism to accomplish what REM sleep does (assuming it has a functional significance) and, in that case, it wouldn't have any bearing on the function of REM sleep in terrestrial mammals.Thanks!
Ben

deletedThis message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-19-2006 01:03 PM

Yeah, most defintiely if they had a phase of paralysis they would drown. They need to be able to surface when required, they even keep one-eye open, and one hemisphere active during slow-wave sleep. Apparently, they move and can avoid obstacles 24hrs a day. Suggesting they do not fall into the altered consciousness of sleep that we do (hence no dreams? - which is my point).So far there seems to be no evidence of REM sleep as we know it in aquatic mammals. One article mentions some very intermittent phases of slow eye-movement. Siegel suggest that even the most generous assessment is maybe 15mins of REM sleep a day. But only one set of researchers have found this effect and most resarch show no REM activity - brain activity is needed to really know whether it is true REM.As the nature article mentions, some mammals only show certain aspects of the REM pattern of sleep that we do. But I raised this research to refute then notion that REM is important to learning (and whether dreams themselves have any real meaning/purpose). So, when an individual takes a tricyclic, like amitryptiline, there are no noticable cognitive deficits. It leads to the developmental theories that REM activity is correlated to immaturity at birth and is a mechanism that enables neural development.So once this is achieved, it seems to have no developmental purpose.So why do we maintain REM sleep? One purpose that has been proposed is maybe it allows wakening in an alert state. So, if aquatic mammals are born fully functional (and it's suggested they are), they would have no real need for REM sleep. However, studies do show that NREM sleep is important for behaviour.Of course, this is just current thinking. I'm sure you know more about cretaceans than me