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Author Topic:   The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 210 (469426)
06-05-2008 2:49 PM


Son of a beach ball. Hillary is expected to end her campaign on Saturday. Son of a beach ball!
I was going to sit out on this election, but over time Hillary convinced me to vote for her. Now I'm back to having no candidate to vote for.
No offense to anyone, but between a white elderly and a black youngster... um... I guess we will see if America is more racist or more ageist.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Worthless topic title enhanced by adding "(Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)".

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 210 (469454)
06-05-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-05-2008 2:49 PM


Upside Down and Inside Out
I fear that McCain will win. I won't vote for him since I believe its again time for the Democrats to run the show for awhile, but if the past is any indicator, Americans are imperialists deep down and they want someone who will keep us committed to preserving our empire.
I recently saw that movie, Why We Fight and I think that it addresses the motives of America for the last fifty years. Folks of both political persuasions have allowed this military industrial complex to flex its muscles at will, and I don't see us changing our tune anytime soon.
I for one think we should cut the defense budget in half and use the half we keep to rebuild our infrastructure. Otherwise we will soon become an impoverished nation ourselves.
Edited by Phat, : add

This message is a reply to:
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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 3 of 210 (469468)
06-05-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-05-2008 2:49 PM


The question on my mind is: Who can screw things up the least?
Obama's has a couple of advantages. His biggest advantage is his ability as a public speaker. He is articulate and very intelligent and can sway an audience. His biggest disadvantage is obviously his lack of experience and the 'L' word that has been attached to him by Conservatives.
Although I vote Democrat more often than not, I have had trouble getting excited either about Obama or Clinton. Obama is a Junior senator who has spent most of his career concentrating on social issues. He lacks any tangible experience in other very important areas. He's a gamble and seems to be something like a secular copy of Huccakbee, although a much better orator. He has shown that he is very good at saying the right things to the right people, but so far I haven't really heard anything of substance. So far, I have heard the obligatory sound bites and usual safe, generic answers to questions-- "We need to get out of Iraq", "We need better health care...". How and when do you plan on making such things happen?
McCain doesn't have any answers either but he does possess experience, especially on foreign policy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the next President will likely be seriously tested by Iran and perhaps North Korea. I think Iran is waiting for Bush to depart and they will no doubt try to pull the strings of the new President as a test to see how the new administration responds.
To me, this issue is utmost on my mind. I believe the next President is going to be tested and likely will be tested quickly, before the administration has time to settle in. McCain carries the bigger stick IMO, and he is more likely to have a "Don't *#$! with me attitude.."
As far as race or age, both have absolutely no bearing on my opinion. I would not decline to vote for someone worried they might keel over and I would not vote for someone simply to make them the first black president. No way, no how. We have serious issues facing us and IMO this is not the time to be letting such things take center stage(although we all know the press will make them center stage).
I am most concerned with foreign policy and the economy and at the present time I am more comfortable with McCain. I am thinking in terms of who can do the least amount of damage to Foreign Policy and the budget.
Although I am not really enthusiastic about McCain, I do respect the experience he brings to the table. At this time, I simply have too many reservations about Obama in many areas.
Regardless, my prediction is whomever gets the nod will be a one-termer. I sense a Carter-like Presidency in the making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-05-2008 2:49 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 06-05-2008 5:37 PM Grizz has replied
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 06-05-2008 7:57 PM Grizz has not replied
 Message 13 by Rrhain, posted 06-07-2008 2:55 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 210 (469469)
06-05-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Grizz
06-05-2008 5:33 PM


What is it about experience that people have been talking about all the time nowadays? The country's founders never intended to have professional politicians running the country for ever and ever. They wanted regular but intelligent folks like college professors and such to have a chance, too.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 5:33 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 5:46 PM Taz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 5 of 210 (469471)
06-05-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
06-05-2008 5:37 PM


What is it about experience that people have been talking about all the time nowadays? The country's founders never intended to have professional politicians running the country for ever and ever. They wanted regular but intelligent folks like college professors and such to have a chance, too.
Diplomacy has changed a lot since Washington's day. With the introduction of the global economy, nuclear weapons, and international politcis, it is not sufficient to just have someone from a University educated in the affairs of state. IMO you also need someone who has had their feet in the fire and has practical experience in such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 06-05-2008 5:37 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 06-05-2008 6:01 PM Grizz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 210 (469475)
06-05-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Grizz
06-05-2008 5:46 PM


Ok, then nominate a 4 star general or something.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 5:46 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 7:38 PM Taz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 7 of 210 (469492)
06-05-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
06-05-2008 6:01 PM


Ok, then nominate a 4 star general or something.
That would violate the constitution. The Presidency is a civilian office.
You don't really need a General, however. The President surrounds himself with advisors, both military and civilian. The President should be able to understand when to say Yes and when to say No to these advisors. He/She also needs to take all things into consideration when he is getting information and question the advisors so he/she doesn't end up jumping the gun(Iraq WMD?)
I am certainly not implying Obama is unqualified, just inexperienced. During these times, I am personally more comfortable knowing someone has been there and seen war first-hand and understands the consequences and results(unlike Bush.) This experience also helps one understand when your advisors are possibly giving you a load of horse ##*^#.
I don't like a lot of things about McCain but I do respect his military service and knowledge and I do think he understands the gravity of warfare and does not seem to be the type that will take it lightly(unlike Bush). I see him as someone who would not go off helter skelter unless absolutely necessary(unlike Bush). I don't see him making the same type of mistakes Bush did with regards to foreign policy.
Obama on the other hand, I just don't know. I have very little information to judge him on this. Perhaps the debates will tell us more on how he would handle certain situations when provoked(which is inevitable once the new President is sworn in).
Usually, I place more importance on other aspects of the candidate. But for me personaly, my biggest concern this time around is definately foreign poilicy. I think the next few years are going to present very serious difficulties for any President. I really think Iran and North Korea are going to be a challenge for the next President. We need a cool head and someone who exudes firm confidence.
Just my opinions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 06-05-2008 6:01 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 8 of 210 (469497)
06-05-2008 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Grizz
06-05-2008 5:33 PM


The problem is that Bush's foreign policy has been a disaster. He's alienated the US from the rest of the world, he's created a perfect recruiting tool for terrorists in Iraq, and he refuses to talk to people he doesn't like, therefore letting misunderstandings build and build until something has to give.
McCain offers exactly the same type of "diplomacy" as Bush. Essentially, do as I say or we'll bomb you to death. To me, that sounds exactly like the mindset of the terrorists, and makes me very worried about the future.
Obama will surround himself with people who have more experience, Presidents don't operate in a vaccuum. He'll be willing to listen to opinions that disagree with his, and will be able to make rational, intelligent decisions based on ALL the evidence. That sounds more like a leader than what McCain offers.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 210 (469502)
06-05-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Grizz
06-05-2008 7:38 PM


Grizz, I see that Perdition got to it first, but I'll just say it anyway.
Sure, you can say that McCain has more experience on that front. But from what I've heard from him there's virtually no difference between his policy and Bush's. You want another 4 or 8 years of Bush?
I'm not saying Obama is the candidate of choice. I am after all considering not voting at all. I just want to point out how your reasoning on experience is flawed.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 7:38 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 10 of 210 (469509)
06-05-2008 9:34 PM


Hi,
You are making the assumption I would not want a hard-nosed leader on foreign policy and the military. I didn't really discuss my position on the use of military power and also on Iraq.
Now that we are there, I really don't think a quick exit is prudent. Bush screwed up by going in under false pretenses but what's done is done. The next President has to clean up the mess made by Bush but I really don't think leaving is going to do anything but create an even more out-of-control zoo that we will eventually have to deal with later. I often find there is a lack of realism exhibited by both sides of the coin when discussing this issue.
On this matter, I am worried that Obama, in effort to do too much too quickly, might be too hasty in our withdrawal.
I also think we should not back down from Iran. That doesn't imply I think we should invade Iran, but we need to let them know we won't play games when it comes to the nuclear issue.
This is not a position exclusive to conservatives. I do not consider myself a conservative. Many moderates and left-leaning pundits hold this view as well i.e. Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens.
Everyone has an opinion on the matter of who is in the best position to lead. It is interesting to discuss politics and share opinions but when it comes to arguing positions I don't think anyone is going to be swayed.
I am not saying Obama cannot handle the situation. I just don't know anything about him. To me, he is an unknown quantity saying nice things but not saying how and when he will go about accomplishing such things without having the situation fall apart. As I said, perhaps the debates will give me more information but right now I am a little skeptical.
McCain is certainly not exciting material; I dont think either candidate is to be honest. I just think he is going to be the lesser of two evils.

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by BMG, posted 06-07-2008 5:00 AM Grizz has replied
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BMG
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 11 of 210 (469737)
06-07-2008 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Grizz
06-05-2008 9:34 PM


Now that we are there, I really don't think a quick exit is prudent.
Regarding Iraq, I agree in the sense that the "right" or "expedient" or "correct" decision is nebulous. My heart says withdrawal, but my head says "I'm not sure". Accurate predicitons, especially regarding wars, are rarely, if ever, manifested-"Iraq's oil will pay for the war", "the terrorists are in their last throes", etc.
I also think we should not back down from Iran. That doesn't imply I think we should invade Iran, but we need to let them know we won't play games when it comes to the nuclear issue.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".
To me, he is an unknown quantity saying nice things but not saying how and when he will go about accomplishing such things without having the situation fall apart.
This is true, and, unfortunately, seems pervasive throughout politicians' speeches. However, in one respect, the fact that Obama has agreed to speak with leaders of foreign nations, as opposed to the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy of the last eight years, at least, in present, seems refreshing and a positive exchange from the Bush doctrine.
Furthermore, it's unlikely, although I could be wrong, Obama will be as loose and ignorant of global issues as McCain (Iran is funding or working with Al Qaeda).
He attended Columbia University, majoring in political science with a specialization in international relations.
Barack Obama - Wikipedia
Moreover, Obama taught constitutional law part-time at the University of Chicago Law School from '93 to '04, something that was sorely missed during the infringement of our civil liberties (Patriot Act).
Lastly, I understand that because someone has these credentials doesn't necessarily mean they will not make mistakes, deceive for personal, corporate, or monetary gain, etc; but it may increase the probability that Obama will not commit some acts as atrocious, whimsical, or obtuse as we have seen in the past. I remember hearing once that knowledge is different than wisdom; knowledge is knowing the "right thing" to do, where as wisdom is actually carrying it out.
Edited by Infixion, : Grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 9:34 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 19 by Grizz, posted 06-07-2008 7:15 PM BMG has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 12 of 210 (469767)
06-07-2008 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by BMG
06-07-2008 5:00 AM


One thing I do like about Obama is that he is refusing to take money from lobbiests for his campaign. That is a start to not being beholden to special interest groups.

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 13 of 210 (469784)
06-07-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Grizz
06-05-2008 5:33 PM


Grizz writes:
quote:
McCain doesn't have any answers either but he does possess experience, especially on foreign policy.
Huh? Have you actually looked at McCain's record? He doesn't know the difference between the Shia and the Sunni (just like our current CiC didn't). He doesn't want to end the occupation of Iraq. He admits to being the biggest supporter of Bush's foreign policy. He is involved in the sliming of Obama's statement that he would meet with the leaders of other countries we consider "enemies," especially commenting that it would be ludicrous to do so "in the first year"...
...conveniently forgetting that JFK and Johnson talked with "our enemies," that during the height of the Cold War we saw Reagan talking with Kruschev, Bush Sr. talking with Yeltsin...
...and Bush Jr. meeting with Putin during his "first year."
Notice how when Clinton was engaged in talks with North Korea, the IAEA inspectors were in with cameras on the reactors which were constantly monitored. As soon as Bush Jr. said we're not going to talk to the North Koreans anymore, the inspectors were booted and the cameras came off.
And McCain has been Bush's cheerleader in such.
He has been the cheerleader in foreign policy blunder after foreign policy blunder. Is that really the "experience" you want?
Let's not forget, he handily admits to having no understanding of economics and was one of the Keating 5 that led to the collapse of the Savings and Loans in the 80s and 90s.
quote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the next President will likely be seriously tested by Iran and perhaps North Korea.
Indeed.
Would you rather have someone who is a bit green but wants to follow the path that has shown to be successful or the one who claims to be experienced but wants to follow the path that has shown to be disastrous?
quote:
McCain carries the bigger stick IMO, and he is more likely to have a "Don't *#$! with me attitude.."
So we should start a third war in Iran? And a fourth in North Korea? That's what McCain is pushing toward.
Quick question to help me gauge just how much you know about the situation: Just what power does Ahmadinejad hold in Iran?
quote:
I am most concerned with foreign policy and the economy and at the present time I am more comfortable with McCain. I am thinking in terms of who can do the least amount of damage to Foreign Policy and the budget.
Then why on earth would you vote against your own interests by voting for McCain?
He has shown that he is incapable of handling foreign policy and he admits he has no economic expertise.
Do you really want someone who wants to start a war with Iran to be in charge of the military?
Do you really want a member of the Keating 5 to be in charge of your money?
quote:
At this time, I simply have too many reservations about Obama in many areas.
So far, you haven't really given any indication as to what those reservations are.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 14 of 210 (469788)
06-07-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Grizz
06-05-2008 7:38 PM


Grizz responds to Taz:
quote:
quote:
Ok, then nominate a 4 star general or something.
That would violate the constitution. The Presidency is a civilian office.
Huh? Then how did Eisenhower get to be President? How did Grant? How did Washington?
quote:
The President should be able to understand when to say Yes and when to say No to these advisors. He/She also needs to take all things into consideration when he is getting information and question the advisors so he/she doesn't end up jumping the gun(Iraq WMD?)
And McCain was the cheerleader behind this disastrous decisions.
And you want to put him in charge? A man who has nothing but a string of failures behind him...that's who you want to be in charge because he has "experience"?
quote:
I don't like a lot of things about McCain but I do respect his military service and knowledge and I do think he understands the gravity of warfare and does not seem to be the type that will take it lightly(unlike Bush).
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
McCain has no respect for military service or he wouldn't have voted against the military so often. In the latest round, McCain is opposed to the veterans' education bill currently in the Senate.
He voted AGAINST the bills to provide armor and equipment to the troops in Iraq.
He voted AGAINST the bills to provide sufficient leave to those returning from Iraq before being redeployed.
He voted AGAINST the bill to provide more funding to the VA hospital facilities (unconscionable given the Walter Reed scandal).
He voted AGAINST the bill to provide more funding to VA inpatient and outpatient services (one of only 13 senators to do so).
He has done nothing but praise the war in Iraq. He voted AGAINST the commission to investigate the intelligence that led to the presidential justifications for the war.
quote:
Obama on the other hand, I just don't know. I have very little information to judge him on this.
And whose fault is that? He's written a couple of books. Have you read them?
quote:
But for me personaly, my biggest concern this time around is definately foreign poilicy.
And since McCain has done nothing but push blunder after blunder through the Senate, why on earth would you want him as president?
Why do you want the person who has been wrong about everything to be in charge? You seem to be saying that because McCain has had the opportunity to be wrong about everything, that makes him a better choice than someone who hasn't had as many opportunities to be wrong, never mind that he's managed to get many of those opportunities right.
quote:
We need a cool head and someone who exudes firm confidence.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
"Cool head"? McCain? The man has a temper like you wouldn't believe. "Cool head"?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 7:38 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Grizz, posted 06-07-2008 6:47 PM Rrhain has replied
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 15 of 210 (469789)
06-07-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Grizz
06-05-2008 9:34 PM


Grizz writes:
quote:
You are making the assumption I would not want a hard-nosed leader on foreign policy and the military.
On the contrary. We've been saying that your definition of "hard-nosed" is someone who thinks starting another war is a good idea.
"Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb Iran."
That's not me...that's a direct quote from John McCain.
quote:
I also think we should not back down from Iran. That doesn't imply I think we should invade Iran, but we need to let them know we won't play games when it comes to the nuclear issue.
They don't have any nuclear program. Haven't for years.
Why do you want to elect someone who wants to start a war in Iran rather than someone who wants to keep the dkplomacy that has been working.
"Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb Iran."
That's not me...that's a direct quote from John McCain.
quote:
I just don't know anything about him.
And whose fault is that?
You'd rather vote for someone you know will screw it up over someone whom you don't know won't? Why are you willingly voting against your own interests?
quote:
I just think he is going to be the lesser of two evils.
Keep the disastrous tax cuts, keep the troops in a disastrous war, start another war.
That's the "lesser of two evils"?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Grizz, posted 06-05-2008 9:34 PM Grizz has not replied

  
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