Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-24-2019 12:25 PM
42 online now:
AZPaul3, edge, Faith, FLRW, JoeT, JonF, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), ringo, Tangle, Tanypteryx, Taq, Theodoric (13 members, 29 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,163 Year: 5,200/19,786 Month: 1,322/873 Week: 218/460 Day: 34/29 Hour: 6/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
22NextFF
Author Topic:   Anyone else notice this pattern?
nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 318 (444303)
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


So, I have noticed that many of the Creationists on this board have, shall we say, less than stellar writing skills compared to the science-minded folks.

Sure, there are a few exceptions, but I would guess that well more than two thirds of the Creationists who have ever posted here simply write very poorly.

Their grammar and punctuation ranges from average to downright awful, they frequently fail to break their posts into paragraphs, and their ability to express ideas, sentence structure and word usage doesn't give one an impression of their having done very well in high school English.

On a related note, my husband frequents a message board populated by people who work in higher education. Not surprisingly, most posters there write well, and express themselves clearly and often eloquently.

Every so often a controversial subject such as Affirmative Action comes up in discussion, and he has noticed that of those people who pop up to write posts condemning it, many of them possess markedly poor writing skills.

So, why does everyone think this pattern exists?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by molbiogirl, posted 12-28-2007 9:06 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Zawi, posted 12-28-2007 9:23 PM nator has responded
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 12-28-2007 10:02 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 12-29-2007 8:22 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 41 by LinearAq, posted 12-31-2007 8:15 AM nator has not yet responded
 Message 47 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:50 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2008 7:39 PM nator has responded
 Message 95 by Trae, posted 01-16-2008 4:44 PM nator has responded
 Message 99 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 11:55 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 294 by Hill Billy, posted 01-27-2008 1:30 AM nator has responded
 Message 315 by pelican, posted 01-27-2008 8:50 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 317 by pelican, posted 01-27-2008 10:01 PM nator has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 2 of 318 (444306)
12-28-2007 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


I haven't any idea why.

Spelling is so easily managed with Google/Firefox/etc. spellcheckers that it's inexcusable.

And grammar? Creos have this habit of misusing 50 cent words in an effort to make their posts sound "authoritative". It's clumsy and just godawful to read. Elmer is a perfect example of this sort of creo jabberwocky.

It reminds me of the Black Nationalist parodies that Eddie Murphy (on SNL) and Damon Wayons (on In Living Color) used to do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has not yet responded

Zawi
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 126
From: UK
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 3 of 318 (444311)
12-28-2007 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


The writing style of creationists doesn't necessarily betray a lack of education, it's just that their writing style is usually unclear. Rational thinkers are much more concerned with clarity than irrational thinkers.

quote:
So, why does everyone think this pattern exists?

You're venturing into dangerous territory if you believe that if two people are debating on the internet, then the debater with the clearest writing style is more likely to be right. I don't mean this so much with scientific issues such as creationism versus evolution because I believe that there is a reason why creationists have unclear writing styles, but when it comes to political issues such as affirmative action then it doesn't really have any bearing. The legitimacy of affirmative action isn't a shut and closed case (though I'm not going to debate that in this thread). Someone who is wrong about an issue can increase their persuasiveness if their writing skills are superior to that of their opponent's, giving them an unfair advantage in debate, so in political debates I ignore the writing style of the debaters.

Edited by Zawi, : added more stuff

Edited by Zawi, : added more stuff

Edited by Zawi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2007 10:26 PM Zawi has not yet responded
 Message 7 by obvious Child, posted 12-29-2007 2:08 AM Zawi has not yet responded
 Message 10 by nator, posted 12-29-2007 1:33 PM Zawi has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-30-2007 7:50 AM Zawi has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1401 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 318 (444326)
12-28-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


So, why does everyone think this pattern exists?

My English professor once said that how clearly a person can communicate to others through his writing reflects greatly on his thought process. Poor writing skills are pretty much due to messy thought process.

It's not just poor writing skills. It's also poor speaking skills. Have you ever talked to these people?


Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 12-29-2007 4:06 PM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-30-2007 4:09 PM Taz has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 5 of 318 (444335)
12-28-2007 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zawi
12-28-2007 9:23 PM


You're venturing into dangerous territory if you believe that if two people are debating on the internet, then the debater with the clearest writing style is more likely to be right.

True, I know of one creationist with good spelling, grammar and paragraph construction.

But he can't argue his way out of a paper bag, due to severe logic failure.

Now, I have wondered whether creationists were bad at logic because of creationist teaching, or whether people bad at logic were creationist because of bad logic, which of course can just be the ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.... but then I've known people with logical aphasia that are just as bad arguing FOR science (one working on his masters).

The writing style of creationists doesn't necessarily betray a lack of education, it's just that their writing style is usually unclear. Rational thinkers are much more concerned with clarity than irrational thinkers.

Nor are people satisfied with their current life-style interested in an education or learning anything outside their rose garden.

poepel aer godo ta nociting patrens evne tohgh ti mya nto eb a parten.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : sever spelling errr


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Zawi, posted 12-28-2007 9:23 PM Zawi has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 4:19 PM RAZD has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 318 (444350)
12-28-2007 11:22 PM


Postulating Poster Patterns
NJ is as good as they come; heads and shoulders over many evolutionists here relative to articulation, phraseology and intelligence. Faith had those qualities as well.

Perhaps the reason many of the more active EvC resident evolutionists are more educated and articulate is that the site's compatibility to their POV draws the intelligent ones in who are educated and scientifically articulate. OTOH The more educated and intelligent creationsists tend to go where their POV prevails and where they have more freedom to speak their mind in the science fora.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Articulative enhancement


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by obvious Child, posted 12-29-2007 2:11 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 9 by jar, posted 12-29-2007 9:52 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 11 by nator, posted 12-29-2007 1:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 7 of 318 (444365)
12-29-2007 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zawi
12-28-2007 9:23 PM


Of course. It is a fallacious argument in that better or clearer writing styles equate to correct arguments. I used to go to another forum where many of the creationists had excellent writing skills, producing coherent sentences, but producing half-baked arguments that revolved around fallacies and in one's case, numerous hoaxes. Their writing styles were free of errors and had excellent grammar, yet their arguments were completely full of hash.

One of the best creationists I've seen used good writing to snooker ignorant people into believing him. Doesn't make him right though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Zawi, posted 12-28-2007 9:23 PM Zawi has not yet responded

obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 8 of 318 (444366)
12-29-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
12-28-2007 11:22 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
Total Hash Buz.

The anonymity of the internet allows anyone to go anywhere on forums and post whatever they wish. Merely because the culture doesn't fit your views does not restrict you from saying what you wish to say however you want to say it. There is nothing stopping you from picking the best style you have. It isn't as if you're going to get attacked physically for what you say. RAZD posted a link to a creationists forum. It physically hurt to read what they were writing and they had the dominant culture and belief there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-28-2007 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 318 (444404)
12-29-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
12-28-2007 11:22 PM


Why Creationism is bankrupt.
One big reason that Creationism is bankrupt is shown in your statement that "OTOH The more educated and intelligent creationsists tend to go where their POV prevails and where they have more freedom to speak their mind in the science fora."

The way you learn is by having what you know challenged. Going where your point of view prevails is neither intelligent nor is it a way to become educated.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-28-2007 11:22 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 12-29-2007 6:41 PM jar has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 318 (444440)
12-29-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zawi
12-28-2007 9:23 PM


quote:
Someone who is wrong about an issue can increase their persuasiveness if their writing skills are superior to that of their opponent's

I don't think this is true at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Zawi, posted 12-28-2007 9:23 PM Zawi has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by obvious Child, posted 12-31-2007 3:23 AM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 318 (444443)
12-29-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
12-28-2007 11:22 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
quote:
NJ is as good as they come; heads and shoulders over many evolutionists here relative to articulation, phraseology and intelligence.

I'll agree that NJ is much better than most Creationists at basic writing skills, but he isn't any better than average among all writers on this board.

As for intelligence...if he's so smart, then why are so very many of his arguments demolished so easily?

He and you both, Buz, have abandoned so many posts and threads and ignored so many rebuttals!

This indicates that you and Juggs tend to not think through the logical implications of your argument before you post them, or if you think you have, you haven't done a very good job. There's also a lot of inaccurate facts that you both tend to put out there that your opponents have to spend a lot of time correcting...

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-28-2007 11:22 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2007 4:46 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 12-29-2007 7:04 PM nator has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6532
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 12 of 318 (444486)
12-29-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
12-28-2007 10:02 PM


My English professor once said that how clearly a person can communicate to others through his writing reflects greatly on his thought process. Poor writing skills are pretty much due to messy thought process.

As a math teacher, I see something very similar. I really try to stress to observe how I do work on the chalk board, how I organize the problem, and how each step automatically leads to the next. Much of the math I teach is mechanical in nature -- there really isn't a whole lot of thinking involved -- just do the steps in the right order, and you'll get there.

When I look at homework and exams, I see a very high correlation between how neat and organized the work is on the paper, and how well they really end up understanding the material. The very neat, organized ones end up being the ones who understand the material and get the answer correct, and the ones who have bits and pieces of correct work scattered here and there in a disorganized fashion quite often get the final answer wrong.

Another interesting thing that I have observed: usually the neat and organized ones have very neat and clear handwriting, and usually the ones who can't seem to organize their work have handwriting that runs from not very neat to illegible. I wonder if there is a correlation between handwriting and clarity of thought?


"The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness."
Clearly, he had his own strange way of judging things. I suspect that he acquired it from the Gospels. -- Victor Hugo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 12-28-2007 10:02 PM Taz has not yet responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 13 of 318 (444494)
12-29-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nator
12-29-2007 1:44 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
I'll agree that NJ is much better than most Creationists at basic writing skills, but he isn't any better than average among all writers on this board.

:frazzled:

Dude, I'm standing here within earshot... At least talk behind my back ;)

As for intelligence...if he's so smart, then why are so very many of his arguments demolished so easily?

:laugh:

None of this would be subjective, would it? Look, Nator, I by no means am going to pat myself on the back, so you can continue believing that you've actually got an airtight case about anything. Should I suppose that you are the bastion of reason on the board?

He and you both, Buz, have abandoned so many posts and threads and ignored so many rebuttals!

Nator, Buz and I both have views that are not in any way predominant on the forum, which invariably means that we are piled-on more than any other. There are only so many times one can say the same thing but phrased differently. If you didn't get it the first 18 times, why should I assume 30 more will stick in your head?

Surely you can have some appreciation for that...

This indicates that you and Juggs tend to not think through the logical implications of your argument before you post them, or if you think you have, you haven't done a very good job.

You speak as though you are certainly right about any given position. Buz and I have stood toe to toe against a sea of adversity and have come out on top more than our fair share. But hey, I guess that's just my opinion, just as your opinion would believe otherwise.

These sort of slander threads are useless and tasteless. (Hey, ever notice that stupid people are theologians? Haha, lol, lol, lmao! roflmao! :rolleyes:) You are welcome to have any thoughts about myself, Buz, or whomever. But what are you going to accomplish other than making yourself look all that much more unwilling to be a reasonable person?

You forgot to add one more aspect to your list of virtues..... humility. :)


“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nator, posted 12-29-2007 1:44 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-29-2007 5:07 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18376
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 14 of 318 (444499)
12-29-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
12-29-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
NJ writes:

Buz and I have stood toe to toe against a sea of adversity and have come out on top more than our fair share.

This is called the Black Knight syndrome, but I heartily agree about your and Buz's writing skills, right up there!

As someone commented above, sloppy writing often accompanies sloppy thinking, but not always, and contrariwise, even the most erudite among us often harbor at least a few wacky ideas.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2007 4:46 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by tesla, posted 12-29-2007 5:30 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2007 7:15 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2167 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 15 of 318 (444506)
12-29-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
12-29-2007 5:07 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
i have been known for my inherent lack of spelling and typing and pure laziness on the typo fixes. thankfully, do to finally initializing spellcheck software on this much to old computer, i can at least be readable. =)

sorry to those i have offended with my jabberwocky :)

in explanation: you grow what you use. an artist can refine the innate talent of art, such as a debater can exercise the art of debate.

scientist are better learned with more schooling than the average person. the higher education are more willing to accept Darwin theory to the letter, based on the scientific evidence which is broad.

however, even the less educated can point out that Darwin has a theory with missing links. and a person of faith will be greatly argumentative if you tell them life was random excluding even the willingness to say God is a possibility. even if they cant spell the word shit.

quote from a man dureing a debate on religion versus evolution:
"sheeeeet maaan what you be gone done trying to say that kinda stuff for maaan? look here, you can' tell me that dis here planet just done gone poof itself from nothin maaaan. that there is more foolish than sayin the world is flat!"

Edited by tesla, : No reason given.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-29-2007 5:07 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by tesla, posted 12-29-2007 5:59 PM tesla has not yet responded
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2007 7:40 PM tesla has responded

1
23456
...
22NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019