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Author Topic:   Lam's issues
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 1 of 28 (238153)
08-29-2005 12:50 AM


Following the suggestion of AdminBen, I am opening this thread so we can move the discussion that started in Commands from God and his general level of interaction in the modern age
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 2 of 28 (238154)
08-29-2005 1:11 AM


This is a response to Message 37.

I'm frustrated at the fact that christians just don't learn.

I understand the frustration. But, as someone once said, institutions don't learn. People learn, but there is a changeover in the people who run the institutions.

I do see change, but it is slow. Many (but not all) christians are somewhat gullible people who tend to play follow the leader in preference to thinking for themselves. The leadership of the churches is dominated by people from older generations, and they are far more reluctant to be accepting of gays than are the younger generation. That's why it takes time.

While I have sworn to protect with my life their right to freedom of worship, even though I don't believe in their god, they conspire and actively seek out various ways to curb my rights, eliminate true science from the classroom and put in its place christian doctrine, etc.

There are many christians, including clergy, who are defending your rights, who support the first amendment, and who are opposed to the contemporary attacks on science.

It is unfortunate that at present the Federal government is controlled by the most extreme group. The place to fight is at the polls, both in the 2006 elections and the 2008 presidential elections.


Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 3 of 28 (238158)
08-29-2005 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
08-29-2005 1:11 AM


General Terms
Part of the problem with this whole issue is "Who are the Christians".

The term "Christian" is way too broad for what Lam is trying to say. I doubt that he's refering to Congregationalists, etc.

Subbing in Extreme Christians, or Hard Right Christians, or the "Moral Minority" might serve better for this discussion.

My problem with these groups is that they often say things like "Jesus is THE answer" as a counter to atheists, but this is horrifyingly disrespectful to the true majority of people out there who do not believe what they believe.

Generally, Christianity is a very popular religion, but Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Jews, and many many other groups do not share this faith.

What's worse, the "Core Christian" groups - Born agains, for example - often completely disregard other Christian groups (ie Mormons and Catholics).

I share Lam's frustration. Even a simple look at the history books shows uncountable examples of horrific things done by Christians who site God's will as their excuse for their behavior. It's enough to make anyone shrink at the words.

Further, the same history books often show time and time again, that Christians have been on the wrong side of many scientific issues. Yet, given their long history of being stone cold wrong on things like astronomy, they insist that they are one hundred percent correct on evolution. After all, God said so. And he's "never been wrong before".

I can't blame Lam for losing it. There's only so much rational discussion you can offer before you start pulling out your hair and screaming "What's wrong with you people!"

I just question whether he should be screaming it in the privacy of his own room, or on these boards.

Hopefully a short break will allow cooler heads to prevail and we can get back to the business at hand - dismantling false arguments and protecting the education system from Theistic invation.


This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 28 (238200)
08-29-2005 5:57 AM


I understand the frustration of why most people do not bother to learn, but am confused at why this is focused on Xians.

Certianly religious zealots have a hard time shifting away from dogma. That is they do learn, but it is rote learning their dogma. Philosophical (politico-moral-etc etc) zealots do the same. I see no difference and no reason to single out one specific religion.

What is more disturbing to me, is not the zealots, as they at least have a reason for learning dogma and eschewing objective investigation. Instead it is all those who say they are not like that, yet end up holding on to just as dogmatic of positions. These people have no reason to learn, and all the reason to question, dogma, yet do not bother making the switch.

Perhaps it is all about the ego or security of wanting to "know" something, in addition to feeling "objectively" justified with one's prejudices.

This message has been edited by holmes, 08-29-2005 05:58 AM


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 5 of 28 (238244)
08-29-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
08-29-2005 5:57 AM


Yup
Instead it is all those who say they are not like that, yet end up holding on to just as dogmatic of positions.

Yup, there are people in every issue like this. For example, I've heard this quote "All penitration is rape". Clearly very fringe.

I think the reason he focused on Christians is simply that those are who are posting here. There aren't any Hindi saying, "This is our story of Creation, it's fact and I refuse to accept any evidence that counters it."


This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 6 of 28 (238251)
08-29-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Nuggin
08-29-2005 10:28 AM


Re: Yup
"This is our story of Creation, it's fact and I refuse to accept any evidence that counters it."

Sounds alot like, "This is our story of Evolution, it's fact(s) and I refuse to accept any evidence that counters it."

Gotta be fair all around.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by mikehager, posted 08-29-2005 12:34 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 7 of 28 (238260)
08-29-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
08-29-2005 5:57 AM


What is more disturbing to me, is not the zealots, as they at least have a reason for learning dogma and eschewing objective investigation. Instead it is all those who say they are not like that, yet end up holding on to just as dogmatic of positions.

This is what comes with us being a social species. People choose to associate with a group that gives them comfort, perhaps for reasons completely unrelated to their religion. They then adopt the dogmas that will best keep them in good relations with this social group.
This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 8 of 28 (238261)
08-29-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tal
08-29-2005 10:49 AM


Re: Yup
Absolutely.

That's the whole purpose of this site. Most of the threads in the science forum are dedicated to just that - explaining the evidence which overwhelmingly supports evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 08-29-2005 10:49 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
Alexander
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 28 (238269)
08-29-2005 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tal
08-29-2005 10:49 AM


Re: Yup
How fortunate then that no scientists say that. You might want to take that gibberish in one of the science forums sometime.

BTW there is way too much stuff crammed into that plume of smoke in your avatar.

This message has been edited by Alexander, 08-29-2005 11:33 AM


'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'
This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 10 of 28 (238276)
08-29-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tal
08-29-2005 10:49 AM


Re: Yup
Tal writes:

Sounds alot like, "This is our story of Evolution, it's fact(s) and I refuse to accept any evidence that counters it."

Care to link to a source anywhere where an evolutionist or an advocate of evolution says this? Otherwise you have just constructed a strawman. I know strawmen are fun to construct and knock down but this technique is a classic logical fallacy and thus not a legitimate debating technique.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 08-29-2005 10:49 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tal, posted 08-29-2005 12:14 PM deerbreh has responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2301 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 11 of 28 (238278)
08-29-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Alexander
08-29-2005 11:32 AM


there be dragons...
Tal doesn't go in the science forms..ever.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Aug-2005 11:58 AM


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Tal
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 12 of 28 (238280)
08-29-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by deerbreh
08-29-2005 11:49 AM


Re: Yup
Ahhh so its not fair when someone says it about your beliefs. It is a stawman.

So if I would have said it first, his counter would have been a strawman?

I guess it would have been a pre-strawman.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by deerbreh, posted 08-29-2005 11:49 AM deerbreh has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 13 of 28 (238281)
08-29-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Alexander
08-29-2005 11:32 AM


Re: Yup
BTW there is way too much stuff crammed into that plume of smoke in your avatar.

It isn't my Avatar. I never put it there, and I can't change it. I've tried several times.

In my profile, under my Avatar, I have a completely different picture. No idea why this one is stuck there.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Alexander, posted 08-29-2005 11:32 AM Alexander has responded

Replies to this message:
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Alexander
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 28 (238284)
08-29-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tal
08-29-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Yup
Interesting about the avatar.

Do you know what a strawman is? Unless you can show us respected scientists actually saying something like that, you're making it up or lying or both.


'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'
This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 15 of 28 (238286)
08-29-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tal
08-29-2005 12:14 PM


Re: Yup
Ahhh so its not fair when someone says it about your beliefs. It is a stawman.

Look again. That is not what I said. It would be fair had an evolutionist actually said such a thing. So far you have not shown that they have. So yes, that is the definition of strawman. Now care to link to a quote from ANY evolutionist that says that?


This message is a reply to:
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