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Author Topic:   George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 150 (349333)
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


George Bush:

US President George W Bush has strongly defended controversial proposals on the treatment and trial of detainees.

He wants to redefine part of the Geneva Conventions covering the treatment of enemy detainees and to hold trials in which evidence is kept from defendants.

source

Franz Kafka:

"No," said the man at the window, who threw his book down on a coffee table and stood up. "You can't go away when you're under arrest." "That's how it seems," said K. "And why am I under arrest?" he then asked. "That's something we're not allowed to tell you."

From The Trial

We are moving into a world of madness, where everything is topsy-turvy and where every basic TRUTH that America stood for is swept aside. George Bush and those who think like him are the threat, not terrorists.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 2 of 150 (349336)
09-15-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


Are we surprised?
Amen.
Most Americans mistakenly believe we live in an actual Democracy.
All we really do is elect a dictator every 4 years - and only one that the corporate elite approves of first as a maleable, obedient puppet. God forbid we should actually get a presidential candidate capable of independent thought and action that puts the interest of average person above that of unfettered wealth and priviledge. Bush wants all the power he can get, but has done absolutely nothing constructive with all the power he already has.
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 150 (349339)
09-15-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


jar writes:

quote:
George Bush and those who think like him are the threat, not terrorists.

I want to say "damn right!" but I disagree about the 'not terrorists' part. I think the terrorists are indeed a threat, but the larger threat to what we call our way of life here in America comes from the Bushwackies, I entirely agree.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1396 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 150 (349341)
09-15-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


First, look at the story in this link.

Even when after everything was cleared up, charges were still filed against the man, given that the charges were later dropped.

To humiliate and threaten a man like that, making him go to court to defend himself for simply having a penis pump and a foreign accent, is mind boggling. If this isn't an indication of a police state being born, I don't know what is.

But like always, the American people would rather start seeing very obvious signs of their freedom taken away, like people getting executed in the streets, before they start to do something. Indeed, fear has made people given up their freedom.


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Nutcase
Member (Idle past 3887 days)
Posts: 20
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 09-14-2006


Message 5 of 150 (349344)
09-15-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


You know, it would have been all over the news if some other president wanted to "redifine part of the Geneva Conventions". With the previous stunts of Bush and his administration noone is even surprised it got to this point.

Edited by Nutcase, : Typo.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 6 of 150 (349353)
09-15-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-15-2006 1:55 PM


Kafka and Orwell, too. While being subjected to the Evil That Is Talk Radio last week, I heard the White House Press Secretary refer to the "CIA interview process" for suspected terrorists. He didn't say where they held these particular interviews, though surely it's over at the Ministry of Peace offices, don't ya think?
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1396 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 150 (349356)
09-15-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Nutcase
09-15-2006 2:55 PM


That's a weird comment coming from a nutcase :D
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 617 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 8 of 150 (349378)
09-15-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
09-15-2006 3:27 PM


let's see, methinks t'would be the ministry of love, not truth. Though, the WPS is defintely from the MoT.

what were the four ministries?
love, truth, peace, and damn, can't remember the last.
(MiniPax, MiniLuv, MiniTru, ???)


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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subbie
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 150 (349387)
09-15-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by kuresu
09-15-2006 4:21 PM


Plenty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Plenty


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 150 (349402)
09-15-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
09-15-2006 2:46 PM


What are we supposed to do about it?
But like always, the American people would rather start seeing very obvious signs of their freedom taken away, like people getting executed in the streets, before they start to do something.

What, exactly, do you want us to do?

I mean it's not like we have legitimate elections here anymore. And that huge military that's being waved around to oppress people around the world, or whatever? What makes you think we're not aware that's a weapon that can be turned against us, as well?

Bush didn't exactly ask the people's permission to go to war, remember? He told us that he was going to, for reasons that he lied about, and then he did.

The president's popularity is so low they don't even poll it anymore. As if it mattered - the president doesn't listen to polls. He says so all the time, and nobody seems to think that's weird. Elected by the people, but he doesn't think he's under an obligation to consider their will?

I've seen what happens when the American people get out into the streets. Firehoses, jackboots, pepper spray, and batons. People "disppearing" in the system, like they did during the RNC in 2004.

I'm sorry. Before all the rest of you nations get all up in our grill about "the American sheeple", or whatever, consider very carefully that functional self-governance in this country came to an end in 2000. I simply don't see what responsibility the rest of you expect us to take on these issues. The days when the American government enacted the will of the people were long, long ago.


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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 150 (349540)
09-16-2006 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: What are we supposed to do about it?
crashfrog asks:

quote:
What, exactly, do you want us to do?

I agree with the sentiment and I'm worried as hell about everything you mention. I'm not absolutely certain we aren't headed toward civil war right here at home.

And isn't the pope sounding awfully medieval lately? How long before he's preaching a crusade?

So I'm wondering if maybe we commie-libs might oughta rethink our support for gun control? Just a thought.


W.W.E.D.?
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 150 (349551)
09-16-2006 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: What are we supposed to do about it?
You're right that there's a reason for Americans to feel powerless, namely that we are somewhat powerless, and getting more that way all the time.

However, that powerlessness is of our own choosing, though not without reason. It reminds me of the Declaration of Independence...

Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.

People may still pin hopes on the system to right itself. Bush only has a couple of years left and there will be a chance at change.

When you ask what we're supposed to do about it, the real answer (under this administration/power structure) might have to be some form of grassroots revolution, if the next election cannot provide a solution. Unfortunately as you pointed out, fighting the power (even peacefully) will likely get one's ass handed back with a couple tank shell and clusterbomb holes... or at the very least an unpaid vacation to a secret prison somewhere.

Then again, there is the concept of "Live free or Die", and "give me liberty or give me death". There is a point when people should and do take command. Again from the DoI...

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

The question would be if Americans have reached that point yet. I don't think so, especially given the chance for change. I think people should try and get active in this upcoming election as well as 2008. Even if you are right, it makes sense to work a "revolution" at both ends. If chance favors an electoral process a lot of hassle is avoided.

Before all the rest of you nations get all up in our grill about "the American sheeple", or whatever, consider very carefully that functional self-governance in this country came to an end in 2000.

I'm not sure if Gatsby wasn't American, but I agree with your point here and will add to it. The rest of the world's nations are the one's taking the biggest snooze. There is no way Bush could be getting away with everything except for the acceptance by other nations.

What's more some other nations, even European ones, have the same policies and back the same agendas. In some cases Bush is only trying to enact what they already have in place. I'm astounded at reading critiques of Americans and the American gov't by people who live under worse, and whose own gov't is giving free pass (or directly aiding) everything Bush does.

If someone outside the US wants to criticize the US, or the people of the US, they ought to show that their own gov't and citizenry are doing a bit better. Right now the only European countries that might be able to say that are Spain, France, and Belgium.

P.S.- I might open a thread on this later, but on the subject of freedoms lost Bush began a major push in his war on porn this summer (coordinating both Fed and State attacks on individuals and companies). Freedom of sexual speech has just been hit in a big way. You might want to keep an eye out for news on that.

Edited by holmes, : tightening


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 13 of 150 (349595)
09-16-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: What are we supposed to do about it?
quote:
Before all the rest of you nations get all up in our grill about "the American sheeple", or whatever, consider very carefully that functional self-governance in this country came to an end in 2000.

Actually, I would put the date closer to December of 1941, although some people could make a good case for 1917. And the seeds were laid, in my opinion, in 1861.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 150 (349596)
09-16-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
09-16-2006 12:43 PM


Re: What are we supposed to do about it?
Actually I think it's been going downhill since 1607.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 15 of 150 (349606)
09-16-2006 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: What are we supposed to do about it?
Crashfrog writes:

And that huge military that's being waved around to oppress people around the world, or whatever? What makes you think we're not aware that's a weapon that can be turned against us, as well?

Way back when I was in the US military, it would have far more difficult for the soldiers to shoot US civilians than their own officers. Have things changed that much with the current generation of recruitment age?


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