On The Matrix

IMO the first two movies rocked my socks off. The first made popular a radical idea (not quite original though) of what we perceive as reality, and what reality actually is. Coupled with a story about a person who is coming to grips with that uncertainty, and their ascent to demi-god status (along with some wicked special effects) it rocked.The second movie was also damn cool. An adventure movie is created with the introduction of Zion. You get a feeling that the main characters are actually fighting for something. Everything moves towards the supposed predictable end of neo inexplicable magic moves towards the (seemingly) predicable end when everything you've been told through the first and second movie come crashing down around you. the hero isn't really special, or magical, or unique. The architect's explanation of what the matrix is, and what neo is is a very elegant explanation that is largely unpredictable and answers questions most audience members weren’t even asking (where did the original "one" come from? what gives neo his powers?).there are some fundamental flaws with the whole "using people as a power source"... but since it's not a blaringly obvious flaw (to most) it can be overlooked to an extent.** if you haven't seen the third matrix, this may give some of it away**Enter the third matrix... IMO this one failed big time. Nothing new or earth shattering is revealed. Neo's victory at the end is largely inexplicable. What bargaining chip could neo or the humans hold after the smith virus is eliminated? No real solution is given for the power shortage the machines are bound to experience. The solution wasn't elegant (neo fights his way to victory). The third movie is more of the same... again no real new information or plot twists are introduced.And i was under the impression that this was supposed to be closure. The humans in Zion are no longer in danger, and the machines apparently are not planning on attacking them. The audience (emphasizing with the humans) will accept that humans are no longer in danger, and call it a day.Does anyone agree with me? was the end of the movie just way over my head, and i missed some key points that actually make a lot of sense, and are very reasonable?i'm seriously thinking the only way i can enjoy the series right now is to make up my own ending (along with reasons as to why the machines were pretending to be dependent on humans for power).

I personally liked the 3rd movie even a little bit better than the second one (and when I say movie, I mean everything up until the last 20 minutes). Let me explain, I thought No.2 was too much over the top concerning fighting scenes (especially battling the 100 Smiths was really bad).
What I personally hate about No.3 is that none of the storylines of No.2 are really followed: e.g. the merovingian (sp?) remains a mystery, and does not really play any part in No.3. The motivation of the different characters (programs) is not explained. In total, it leaves one wondering more than the first movie ..
So summarizing: Cheap but strong motivation for people to buy more Matrix products, in which maybe more will be explained.

I think the authors have purposefully left some things vague and speculative. Perhaps with the hope that it will inspire various opinions..? I have my take below on what I consider the best scene from Matrix 2. They could have probably saved about 20 million dollars and still made a great movie...but alass...we need all those super-extented fighting and chase scenes too don't we!? If a five minute scene was good in the first one, perhaps a twenty minute fight scene may be even better...'ya think...? lol...Also...since you already began this thread...I was wondering if anyone else sees in Matrix the many...how can I put this...similarities, or connections that could be made with Matrix and the Bible and J.C.??*** This is not a Matrix 3 Spoiler..but it is a Matrix 2 Spoiler ***
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***IMO the best and most important part in all of part two was the one scene conversation with the Architect. (Which by the way was probably the cheapest scene to create in the movie!)Major things are revealed here...The Architect is a machine entity that created the original failed matrix, and the newly running one. The other one failed because the 'world' was too perfect and the human mind rejected it. In this new Matrix, he made it just like 'real' Earth was in 1999, with all the good and bad stuff that can happen, programmed to run the course of a person's life.Here in the conversation we find out that this Matrix was actually also a failure. Another machine program/entity found out that the reason the human minds rejected this one was because of the lack of 'choice'. If they were given the freedom to choose, even at the unconscious level, then most would choose the Matrix, and keep owering up the machine world.The small percentage that would choose the other option, (as in the green (or whatever color it was) pill, in Matrix 1) they would be 'freed' and ultimately be part of the resistance and Zion.-So we find out that Zion and the resistence itself is level of control by the machines. The One is just the culmination of the whole resistence cycle. He is brought about when the Machines felt Zion was full enough to mark 'final battle'. Zion would be attacked by the Machines, and the 'One' would be brought to the 'source' to choose to either save Zion and the humans, or let the 'program'/resistance continue on its path, where Zion would be wiped out by the machines and the matrix would result in a system creah, killing everyone in it.So the 'one' would choose saving humanity...Machines would let the 'One' pick 23 survivors and they would begin the whole cycle again. - The program would - Reload - (thus the title). This had already happened five other times. The Architect had to let Neo and this cycle remain until he could figure out a way to get all 100% of human minds to eccept the Matrix.The Architect must let the 'One' have a real choice for the program to be 'valid' for the unconscious human minds. So now the Matrix was reloaded, and ready to begin the new cylce...But this time Neo chooses to remain with the continued resistence, because of his love for Trinity. - And that's what changes things this time around.- I thought it pretty kewl with the whole scheme of things with the first Matrix. But this was surrounded by all those great -prolonged-special effects.- I also have my thoughts on the 'Anomolies' - (1) Agent Smith - A totally equal and totally opposite opposing force for Neo and the Machines, and also some theories on the (2) Oracle's place in things and the (3)little girl from part 3....but's that's another story....P.S. An added running theory to the whole thing is that the whole thing, even Zion, and the suppossed 'freed' humans, are all actually a 'Matrix within a Matrix', and that's actually why Neo has his powers in the 'real' world as well (end of part 2), and why Agent Smith is able to go into a Human in the 'real world'. (again showed near end of part 2).-
Whew...If I only spent half the time I do on movies as I did....well...you know...

I like the third movie to a point. I left the theater, though, with an odd sense of disappointment that I can't quite put my finger on. The ending didn't explain anything, it left a lot of issues hanging, the characters didn't feel as real to me.The original movie had a lot of Gnostic and Buddhist undertones that seemed to be missing from the third movie.Morpheus, who was one of my favorite characters from the first two movies, was inconsistent in the third. He couldn't keep his philosophies straight. Is it fate or is there a choice? He keep jumping between, what seemed to me at any rate, a free will vs determinism conundrum that just made me cringe every time it happened.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

maybe i'm just a sucker for surprise endings. in the first movie you start to believe the oracle is this all knowing entity that tells the truth, and so you believe her when she tells neo isn't "the one". But when morpheus says something to the effects of "she told you exactly what you needed to hear"... like when she first told him about the vase. it sort of had a mission impossible quality to it.then in the second movie you find out there is more to this "fake" world than everyone thinks, and morpheus' struggle isn't at all as final and deciding as you were led to believe.then with number three... well nothing new... i guess maybe the smith program propagating and taking over... and that being the source of the deal between machines and humans... but was that really the best they could do?

You don't say! Parallels to Christianity? Amazing!The fact that they're in there by the shovel-full, and stuffed down your throat at any avaliable opportunity, makes them impossible to be ignored.Seriously. The Brothers W raided a freshman-level comparative-religions reading list and fed it through the wood chipper. The comparisons to religions and traditions like Buddism, Gnosticism, and plain-ol' Christianity are numerous and unsubtle. Let's not act like these are the most cerebral movies ever, ok? You do realize that this is the stupidest idea ever, right? Nothing's worse than getting to the end of a good story and finding "But it was all a dream!"It's pretty clear to me - the Brothers W could have had another 10 minutes of movie where they could have covered the new relationship between the humans and the machines, but they're leaving things open for the MMORPG video game that's coming out next year. Shameless. In the meantime they've created the appearance of a cerebral movie by simply closing as few plot threads as they could get away with.

the animatrix, and the consol game also provide further information to the story/world of the matrix. I'm pretty sure this is something that has never been done. Sure you have spin-offs and such, but mainly those are just shadows of the main movie.Can you know what the "Osiris" is with out watching the animatrix, or how captain Niobi got the documents (show to the other captains at the beginning of matrix 2) with out playing the game?... ok yes they probably made/are making mad bank off these other products, but these other products are actually telling part of the story, and are a little more than another shameless merchandising scheme (a little).

Eh, I'm unimpressed. Firstly the Matrix game was lame. It could have done with another 6 months of testing.And the Animatrix was a cool idea, except that beyond the Osiris and that kid, absolutely none of it is made to tie back into the movies. (Not that the shorts weren't good - I loved "Program".)I hope the MMORPG is cool, because I'll probably play it. Not because I love the Matrix brand so much but because the game mechanics sound cool.

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Also...since you already began this thread...I was wondering if anyone else sees in Matrix the many...how can I put this...similarities, or connections that could be made with Matrix and the Bible and J.C.??Quote:
You don't say! Parallels to Christianity? Amazing!-------------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, if me stating something that is so obvious was..offending in some way? Should I have stated it like, 'another movie that does that', would it have sounded better for you?------------------------------------------------------------------
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Let's not act like these are the most cerebral movies ever, ok?
-------------------------------------------------------------------Uh...ok... Again, sorry, didn't realize that I was acting like that...Let me read it again...nope...That's not what I implied.----------------------------------------------------------------
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You do realize that this is the stupidest idea ever, right? Nothing's worse than getting to the end of a good story and finding "But it was all a dream!"------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, yes, I agree, I hate ending like 'it was all a dream'. But that is not that case...Nor did I state this was what I believed to be the case. The Matrix within a Matrix idea still fits in well with the views learned from Matrix 2...Machines still need something for the Human battery cells to continue 'living' unconsciously into continue feeding them...and the destroyed world in 'reality' may be just that, destroyed beyond being even there anymore, or of any use...The little girl in part 3...In the ending...They're looking at a nice looking city in the distant...'Did you create that nor Neo?'- the oracle asks...The little says she has..created that city...still within the or a Matrix obviously..though they led you to believe that this is where the 'freed' humans will be living...Pehaps having a Matrix that will be more like thiir real wold anyway, as they want it, and helping the machines still get fed...without the need for further expandion. A toleration of both if you will, some middle ground, for both of their survival.Anyway...my point was, many aspects/things can be taken and debated over with various opinions...and I believe *that* was the authors initial intent. (Not even that I agree that it worked out well.) - I don't even think that 2 and 3 were all that good at all as they turned out.The games...so far..do not include anything that is needed for really learn more of the movie. It's just a side story, the info of that result is told within the movie in a line or two. It's not really cruicial to the movies...just like fan fiction. Also, I didn't find anything anywhere that says they left the ending ambiguous for the next video game. As far as I see it, it's going to be a multiplayer game that will still be the struggle between zion and the machines, don't see anywhere that shows it to be any kind of continuation or explaination of the ending so far....I agree that the mass public marketing had ruined many things so far, besides movies...and that is shamless, and ruins more movies that I had been waiting for than I can count so far...I just don't see their desicion to end the movies that way as a reason for it...right now anyway...it very well be.Last note: As I read it, the authors intended the first movie to be a one shot story. Purposfully having the same kind of 'not fully answered ending'...I don't think the mass marketing of games and such was the main factor the first time around...sometimes 'ya just gotta leave good things alone...but then again...'gotta make the money where/when 'ya can...right...?

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Also...since you already began this thread...I was wondering if anyone else sees in Matrix the many...how can I put this...similarities, or connections that could be made with Matrix and the Bible and J.C.??Quote:
You don't say! Parallels to Christianity? Amazing!-------------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, if me stating something that is so obvious was..offending in some way? Should I have stated it like, 'another movie that does that', would it have sounded better for you?------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
Let's not act like these are the most cerebral movies ever, ok?
-------------------------------------------------------------------Uh...ok... Again, sorry, didn't realize that I was acting like that...Let me read it again...nope...That's not what I implied.----------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
You do realize that this is the stupidest idea ever, right? Nothing's worse than getting to the end of a good story and finding "But it was all a dream!"------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, yes, I agree, I hate ending like 'it was all a dream'. But that is not that case...Nor did I state this was what I believed to be the case. The Matrix within a Matrix idea still fits in well with the views learned from Matrix 2...Machines still need something for the Human battery cells to continue 'living' unconsciously into continue feeding them...and the destroyed world in 'reality' may be just that, destroyed beyond being even there anymore, or of any use...The little girl in part 3...In the ending...They're looking at a nice looking city in the distant...'Did you create that nor Neo?'- the oracle asks...The little says she has..created that city...still within the or a Matrix obviously..though they led you to believe that this is where the 'freed' humans will be living...Pehaps having a Matrix that will be more like thiir real wold anyway, as they want it, and helping the machines still get fed...without the need for further expandion. A toleration of both if you will, some middle ground, for both of their survival.Anyway...my point was, many aspects/things can be taken and debated over with various opinions...and I believe *that* was the authors initial intent. (Not even that I agree that it worked out well.) - I don't even think that 2 and 3 were all that good at all as they turned out.The games...so far..do not include anything that is needed for really learn more of the movie. It's just a side story, the info of that result is told within the movie in a line or two. It's not really cruicial to the movies...just like fan fiction. Also, I didn't find anything anywhere that says they left the ending ambiguous for the next video game. As far as I see it, it's going to be a multiplayer game that will still be the struggle between zion and the machines, don't see anywhere that shows it to be any kind of continuation or explaination of the ending so far....I agree that the mass public marketing had ruined many things so far, besides movies...and that is shamless, and ruins more movies that I had been waiting for than I can count so far...I just don't see their desicion to end the movies that way as a reason for it...right now anyway...it very well be.Last note: As I read it, the authors intended the first movie to be a one shot story. Purposfully having the same kind of 'not fully answered ending'...I don't think the mass marketing of games and such was the main factor the first time around...sometimes 'ya just gotta leave good things alone...but then again...'gotta make the money where/when 'ya can...right...?

Sorry for the double post...can't get it deleted.

Not really offended. It's just that you're not the first one to point out the obvious parallels in these movies with such an air of sepulcheral mystery that I had to poke fun. Sorry if I wasn't gentle about it. I'm not sure that making two more movies was an automatic mistake. I think the two movies they did make were mistakes. I wouldn't have brought back Smith, for instance. The minute he returns, Neo's godlike powers from the end of the first movie are totally deflated. Why do that? Why bother? Surely there's challenges for a god, too?There could have been great Matrix sequels. It's just that the two we got weren't them.

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There could have been great Matrix sequels. It's just that the two we got weren't them.-I totally agree there....and they could have probably done it for millions cheaper too

The third movie? Eh. They had an interesting idea in the first one and did absolutely nothing with it.At the end of the second one, I thought that they were finally going to deal with the huge question that doesn't even get the courtesy of a mention in the first one: What if this is just level 2 of the program? Neo suddenly gets the power to affect the machines? Yes! He's coming to realize that this, too, is just an illusion...the function of the program trying to maintain itself. If the humans in the Matrix need to have the ability to choose, then this is the "other choice" that has been offered.And when Smith came back, I was thinking that he had been to the next level above. Neo's destruction of him booted him out of the base reality. That's the "thing" that Neo supposedly showed him.The conversation with the architect was ridiculous. I kept on thinking, "Isn't there a timing issue going on in Neo's head? Why is he sitting around talking to this boob when he needs to destroy the core within the next few minutes?"But the final feeling I had from the third one was, "My god...how many Messiah cliches can they stuff into a single movie?" I knew that the Matrix had a bunch of freshman-level comparative religion in it (c'mon...Neo's name is "Thomas"...and he's a "doubter"...get it?! Get it!? *snort!*) but this was ridiculous.The saviour who gets blinded, but can still see through his special sense, and needs to walk out into the desert to die? Right out of Dune.The dragging of Neo's body onto the platform and he gets taken away in a blaze of light, followed by people saying that he shall return? Excalibur.The fight of the rebels against the evil oppressors until the saviour can work his magic? Star Wars.And let's not forget the use of the Merovingian. For those who don't know, there is a group of Christians who think that Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline and she was pregnant with their child when he was crucified (thus, the concept of the "Holy Grail" refers to her and the "blood of Christ" that the Grail held was his kid.) She was smuggled out of the Middle East and taken to France and a line of kings came from her...the Merovingians.(Oh, and then there's "Sati," the virtuous woman, in Hindu...the widow who casts herself on her husband's funeral pyre...I'm not sure they quite knew that when choosing her name....)It wasn't the fact that they were doing a Messiah movie. It's the fact that they seemed so self-conscious about it.I had no problem with the death of Smith necessitating the death of Neo (they are, after all, opposites on the equation that need to be balanced which means the only way to do that is to cancel them out), but the way in which it was done didn't seem right. It was all calculated to have Smith ask Neo "Why do you continue to fight?" and to have Neo reply, "Because I choose to." Didn't Neo know that going in? Then why the fight? He already leaped into Smith once, so why not point that out this time? Oh, because we wouldn't get to have our really cool water special effects.And the biggest disappointment of all is that Neo's promise at the end of the first movie is never carried out. He's on that phone saying about how he's going to teach the people in the Matrix a new way? And then he does his Superman thing? What happened?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Can someone explain to me why they created zion in the first place? Why didn't they just kill the humans that didn't accept the Matrix? Why would they create their enemy only to destroy them? Why even take the risk? I mean, come on, did you see all the fire power they had? There would be no need for that if they didn't create a Zion.Also, are giant humanoid vehicles that hold huge machine guns gangsta style the best defense they could think of? And why couldn't the machines just drop a nuke in Zion, they had to have nuclear capabilities if they were getting their energy from fusion technologies. I also see no reason why they would use humans for anything involving energy seeing how we just convert energy to a less usable form.