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Author Topic:   Haggard thread #2
Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 168 (362344)
11-07-2006 3:27 AM


The first thread about Haggard went to so many directions that the original topic was lost in the mist of confusions, and I was partly responsible. Hopefully, the sequel will be a little better.

From the previous thread...

Haggard Letter writes: writes:


Ted Haggard’s letter to his congregation, in its entirety, dated Nov. 5, 2006
My Dear New Life Church Family,

I am so sorry. I am sorry for the disappointment, the betrayal, and the hurt. I am sorry for the horrible example I have set for you.

I have an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness in my heart for the pain that you and I and my family have experienced over the past few days. I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment to all of you.

I asked that this note be read to you this morning so I could clarify my heart’s condition to you. The last four days have been so difficult for me, my family and all of you, and I have further confused the situation with some of the things I’ve said during interviews with reporters who would catch me coming or going from my home. But I alone am responsible for the confusion caused by my inconsistent statements. The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.

I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.

Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me. Then, because of pride, I began deceiving those I love the most because I didn’t want to hurt or disappoint them.

The public person I was wasn’t a lie; it was just incomplete. When I stopped communicating about my problems, the darkness increased and finally dominated me. As a result, I did things that were contrary to everything I believe.

The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry. Our church’s overseers have required me to submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family.

I created this entire situation. The things I did opened the door for additional allegations. But I am responsible; I alone need to be disciplined and corrected. An example must be set.

It is important that you know how much I love and appreciate my wife, Gayle. What I did should never reflect in a negative way on her relationship with me. She has been and continues to be incredible. The problem was not with her, my children, or any of you. It was created 100% by me.

I have been permanently removed from the office of Senior Pastor of New Life Church. Until a new senior pastor is chosen, our Associate Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, will assume all of the responsibilities of the office. On the day he accepted this new role, he and his wife, Aimee, had a new baby boy. A new life in the midst of this circumstance – I consider that confluence of events to be prophetic. Please commit to join with Pastor Ross and the others in the church leadership to make their service to you easy and without burden. They are fine leaders. You are blessed.

I appreciate your loving and forgiving nature, and I humbly ask you to do a few things:

1. Please stay faithful to God through service and giving.

2. Please forgive me. I am so embarrassed and ashamed. I caused this and I have no excuse. I am a sinner. I have fallen. I desperately need to be forgiven and healed.

3. Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly. So, forgive him and actually, thank God for him. I am trusting that his actions will make me, my wife and family, and ultimately all of you, stronger. He didn’t violate you; I did.

4. Please stay faithful to each other. Perform your functions well. Encourage each other and rejoice in God’s faithfulness. Our church body is a beautiful body, and like every family, our strength is tested and proven in the midst of adversity. Because of the negative publicity I’ve created with my foolishness, we can now demonstrate to the world how our sick and wounded can be healed, and how even disappointed and betrayed church bodies can prosper and rejoice.

Gayle and I need to be gone for a while. We will never return to a leadership role at New Life Church. In our hearts, we will always be members of this body. We love you as our family. I know this situation will put you to the test. I’m sorry I’ve created the test, but please rise to this challenge and demonstrate the incredible grace that is available to all of us.

Ted Haggard


I'm a little confused about something and I hope someone might be able to clarify it for me.

Is Haggard apologizing for his infidelity or for his gayness? Is the dark side that he talked about his urge to commit infidelity or his homosexuality?


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 168 (362356)
11-07-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-07-2006 3:27 AM


The Dark Side Of Denial
Haggard, in his letter writes:

Our church body is a beautiful body, and like every family, our strength is tested and proven in the midst of adversity. Because of the negative publicity I’ve created with my foolishness, we can now demonstrate to the world how our sick and wounded can be healed, and how even disappointed and betrayed church bodies can prosper and rejoice.


gasby writes:

Is Haggard apologizing for his infidelity or for his gayness? Is the dark side that he talked about his urge to commit infidelity or his homosexuality?

Good question. I certainly hope that Dobson and the fundies to whom he is accountable to don't try and heal him of his inclinations. That never works. Inclinations and actions are two different things.

It is debateable whether homosexual behavior is itself a darkside issue, but I would certainly link Haggards behavior up with infidelity. Marriage is marriage. Ironically, Haggard opposed marriage between men, so it remains to be seen his future stance on this issue publically.

Do you think that he should stay with the fundamentalist conservatives, gasby?

I think that God could use him to heal the rift between evangelicals and homosexual activists.

If only he would have admitted it all before the news media cornered him, he would have more integrity.

Which direction, specifically, do you want this Haggard topic to go? What issue do you want to focus on, gasby?

Edited by Phat, : added


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5587
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 3 of 168 (362386)
11-07-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-07-2006 3:27 AM


Damage control
Is Haggard apologizing for his infidelity or for his gayness?

In my opinion, he is not apologizing at all. He is doing damage control.


Regime change in Washington - midterm elections, Nov 7

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 4 of 168 (362388)
11-07-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-07-2006 3:27 AM


It seems that he is apologizing for hurting and embarassing the church he served and his friends and family. The letter seems pretty appropriate for me, leaving out the details (homosexual sex, drug use) that are really no one else's business or details (infidelity) that are a private family matter.

Is there something in particular you would like to see him say?


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 168 (362391)
11-07-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 9:25 AM


Is there something in particular you would like to see him say?

"I'm deeply sorry for being such a hypocritical douchebag and allowing my culturally-inculcated distaste for my own nature to send me off on a moralistic crusade to tear apart thousands of gay families."


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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 529
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 6 of 168 (362410)
11-07-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Thugpreacha
11-07-2006 6:30 AM


Re: The Dark Side Of Denial
If only he would have admitted it all before the news media cornered him, he would have more integrity.

If only he had more integrity, he would have admitted it all before the news media cornered him.

Actually, all he's really admitted to is maybe a little fibbing! Well, not even that. He was just 'incomplete'.

Would this be comprable to Hitler admitting he was a Jew, and maybe his persecution of those people was a bit of a charactor flaw?


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 168 (362425)
11-07-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 9:25 AM


chiroptera writes:

Is there something in particular you would like to see him say?


Not really. While I fully understand that he doesn't have to address the issue anymore than he already has because it's really none of our bussiness, I am just curious where this incident might lead. Will people blame infidelity or will people blame homosexuality?

On a different note, I just realized that this latest Haggard thing might give a very good example to many that homosexuality can't be cured by bible camp, christian indoctrination, or any other method because it's not a disease or will to sin.


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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 8 of 168 (362427)
11-07-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 9:25 AM


i agree. it's a private matter. as it should be. from say, the government. anyways.

3. Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly. So, forgive him and actually, thank God for him. I am trusting that his actions will make me, my wife and family, and ultimately all of you, stronger. He didn’t violate you; I did.

i really like this part. i hadn't thought of it before but fundies are nuts and might have, i dunno, beaten him and tied him to a fencepost.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 168 (362429)
11-07-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Thugpreacha
11-07-2006 6:30 AM


Re: The Dark Side Of Denial
Phat writes:

Do you think that he should stay with the fundamentalist conservatives, gasby?


Personally, I don't know what to think.

I think that God could use him to heal the rift between evangelicals and homosexual activists.

Well...

Which direction, specifically, do you want this Haggard topic to go? What issue do you want to focus on, gasby?

Well, I was just curious about other people's interpretations of his apology, considering the fact that it's so general and completely absent of details. It's certainly an apology that leaves people wondering. While I'd like it to be a question of infidelity, I really do somewhat see people (fundies) blaming this on homosexuality.

The way I see it, this could lead to 2 reactions among the fundies: (1) it looks like homosexuality couldn't be cured and (2) homosexuality is sinful and destroys marriage.


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 168 (362430)
11-07-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
11-07-2006 12:37 PM


Will people blame infidelity or will people blame homosexuality?

A fair number of people are already blaming his wife for "letting herself go."

I mean, that totally makes fuckin' sense, right? Your wife packs on a little mommy weight, and it sends you right into the arms of a drug-dealing male escort. I mean, who hasn't been there?


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 168 (362434)
11-07-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-07-2006 12:46 PM


That I haven't heard yet.


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 12 of 168 (362440)
11-07-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-07-2006 12:46 PM


But Haggard went WAAAY too far. Most people I know only drink and smoke pot while they get a 'massage' from their male escorts. Crystal meth is too hardcore for all this just to be about homosexuality. I mean common, if your wife was fat wouldn't you do crystal meth too?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 13 of 168 (362442)
11-07-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
11-07-2006 12:53 PM


Oh, my. Well, you just gotta hear about it!


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 168 (362444)
11-07-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 1:35 PM


I don't get it. I did a search for Gayle Haggard and she looks fine to me.


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 15 of 168 (362445)
11-07-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
11-07-2006 1:50 PM


Not that it matters what she looks like: Driscoll is an asshat.

Added by edit:

Hmm. Upon reading Driscoll's blog where he has made those, um, unfortunate comments, I am struck at how little anything he said has to do with the Haggard situation. It's almost as if he's preoccupied with something and needed an excuse to vent his anxieties.

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 11-07-2006 1:50 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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