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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 174 (370604)
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


King David was found guilty of adultery, murder and coveting another man's wife despite his pleas of innocence.

In his defense David claimed:

"I was at my palace when he was killed," said David - being portrayed by Daniel Kirsch, a biblical scholar - when asked by the prosecuting attorney if he murdered the husband of a woman with whom he had had an affair. "I did not lay a glove on him, and if I had, it would not fit."

So was Bathsheba just a Good Jewish Mother looking out for the interests of her son?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1402 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 174 (370630)
12-18-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


When I was in college, I befriended a guy name David. The first time I met his girlfriend... she took my breath away.

Sometimes you feel attracted to someone else's mate or potential mate, and it's understandable. We are all human. What I don't get is there are many many other women out there. Why would you feel the need to conspire to commit murder just to satisfy your moment of lust?

This is further proof that our sense of morality nowadays is far superior to the people in biblical times. If I were a fundy and believed that we should follow the examples of the ancient people, I would have conspired to kill David and grabbed his girlfriend.


George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 3 of 174 (370646)
12-18-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


By questioning Bathsheba's motives for bathing where the king could see her, the defense tacitly admitted to the coveting charge. Provocation is not an excuse. The attempt to impugn Bathsheba's character was a transparent ploy, with no evidence presented to substantiate it.

I don't see where David ever contested the adultery charge.

The letter to Joab, including the phrase, "that he may be smitten, and die," leaves no doubt as to David's guilt in the conspiracy to commit murder.

Guilty on all three counts. (And the prosecution should consider adding a charge of rape.)


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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 509
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 174 (370659)
12-18-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


One wonders to what extent this perfidious, adulterous, murderous, rapacious nature is hereditary. It would certainly explain why subsequent generations were careful to not be labeled as descendants of David.
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 174 (370683)
12-18-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


So was Bathsheba just a Good Jewish Mother looking out for the interests of her son?

Isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Brian.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 174 (370692)
12-18-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
12-18-2006 4:38 PM


Way before the whores


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 7 of 174 (370793)
12-19-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


It is plain to see! David was a sinner in need of a savior.

In all candor jar, I wonder what it is you are suggesting?

That David was fallen?
That he did something immoral?
That he was weak?
That he was evil?

Or... that he was human and guilty of nothing?

That he failed to live out a belief in righteousness as every person who has lived excepting one?

There is, of course, the option of setting the bar elsewhere, whereas we have not only achieved the objective, but exceeded it.

It's plain to see!

What worldview are you promoting by bringing up this unscrupulous episode in Biblical history?

What do you want to hear?


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 8 of 174 (370796)
12-19-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
12-18-2006 4:38 PM


Care to join me?

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=25&t=2544&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=25&t=2544&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=25&t=2544&m=1


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Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 9 of 174 (370805)
12-19-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


Guilty the moment it happened
King David was found guilty of adultery, murder and coveting another man's wife despite his pleas of innocence.

I've got to ask the same question as Scotness. What exactly are you getting at? I mean, we all know that David was a murder, an adulterer, coveter and a liar. We don't need biblical scholars to identify that. 2nd Samuel spills the beans for us very plainly.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 10 of 174 (370828)
12-19-2006 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Taz
12-18-2006 11:24 AM


This is further proof that our sense of morality nowadays is far superior to the people in biblical times.

I don't think that the bible codons what David did, but points out that it was wrong. And since you felt the same thing, not much has changed at all. Who knows, given the right circumstance, you might have "went for it."


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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 11 of 174 (370829)
12-19-2006 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-18-2006 9:23 AM


So what, David was human.
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 12 of 174 (370841)
12-19-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
12-19-2006 12:22 AM


Trials and tribulations
scottness writes:

I wonder what it is you are suggesting?

Check out Jars original King David link and you will find your answer. It was a mock trial.

Edited by Phat, : err


Phat® says: We Become The Decisions That We Make.
* * * * * * * * * *
"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."

"Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."- --Sir Isaac Newton


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 13 of 174 (370858)
12-19-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-19-2006 9:54 AM


Re: Trials and tribulations
I'll investigate... thanks for the tip.
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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 174 (370864)
12-19-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
12-19-2006 12:22 AM


Why bring it up?
Mainly because Hebrew University brought it up and I think it's funny, humorous. How often to I get to make puns such as cart before the whores.

Anyway, they did not even charge him with the really great crimes he committed during his reign. They gave him a pass of the purges that he carried out against potential political rivals or his genocide.

King David is an interesting subject. If he actually lived, he was pretty much the typical Tyrant of the period, the Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot or Stalin of the Kingdom (if there ever was a kingdom of Israel or Judah) Era.

As to your specific questions since I don't believe there ever was a Fall I'd say he wasn't fallen.

As to immoral, he did almost nothing that was Moral.

That he was weak? No, not hardly.

That he was Evil? Not within the mores of the period. Quite frankly, none of the things he did, murder by proxy to steal a man's wife, genocide, purging the potential rivals to the throne, would have been considered particularly evil or even wrong by his contemporaries.

What worldview are you promoting by bringing up this unscrupulous episode in Biblical history?

Honest perhaps?

What do you want to hear?

Peoples opinions of course. What other purpose could there be?

I was not sure what direction this might take. One possibility, and one that I had some hope might come up, is the idea that Christian teaching, at least at the Church and Sunday School level, might finally begin to honestly explore Christian history just as Hebrew University is exploring Jewish History.

Many terrible acts have happened in the past in the name of Christianity and they continue today. In many ways, Christianity is one of the more bankrupt religions on today's scene. If there is to be hope of changing Christianity we must first acknowledge what we, as Christians, have done wrong in the past, examine honestly what we are doing now and try at the least, not repeat the errors of the past.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 15 of 174 (370870)
12-19-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
12-19-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Why bring it up?
I found your reply very informative. Thank you for your candor.

I was not sure what direction this might take. One possibility, and one that I had some hope might come up, is the idea that Christian teaching, at least at the Church and Sunday School level, might finally begin to honestly explore Christian history just as Hebrew University is exploring Jewish History.

I don't think Christian orthodoxy could more accurately portray all men, than portraying them as depraved, desperately wicked, and in absolute need of a savior.

Many terrible acts have happened in the past in the name of Christianity and they continue today. In many ways, Christianity is one of the more bankrupt religions on today's scene. If there is to be hope of changing Christianity we must first acknowledge what we, as Christians, have done wrong in the past, examine honestly what we are doing now and try at the least, not repeat the errors of the past.

I don't think it's a matter of avoidance in reapeating the errors of the past. We are inherently programed to repeat them. It's our nature!

You appear to me, to be condemning what is perfectly natural. How can we look to anything other than something above ourselves (or the transcendant) with which to stop what you find so offensive?


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