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Author Topic:   Soy - another spinoff from the hypocrite thread.
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 3 (396798)
04-22-2007 3:53 AM


**important note. for those who don't know, i'm a swim instructor. this seems off-topic, but it will help you understand some things. all our pools are outdoor, so this means i have a seasonal job in the sun and with lots of chlorine. continue.**
let's discuss the healthfulness of soy protein replacement for meats.
i found a few articles by accident while looking up sugar glider diets (trying to talk myself out of the furry little balls of trouble).
the dark sides of soy
this article suggests that soy can disrupt the thyroid gland, can interfere with the absorption of protein, can leach minerals, and isoflavones may upset hormone balance
further, the cancer fighting properties of soy are in question
THERE IS MUCH TALK, and hope, in the soy research community that soy genistein, one of the isoflavones, can prevent and even cure cancer. Because genistein's molecular structure resembles the hormone estrogen, it is said to occupy estrogen-receptor sites on cells and block the growth of hormonally induced tumors such as breast cancer tumors. Human and animal studies have shown that isoflavones can reduce tumors. There is also evidence that genistein might foil the formation of the new blood vessels needed to feed a growing tumor, as well as induce "immortal" cancer cells to die.
However, some studies have contradicted these findings. William G. Helferich, Ph.D., a researcher at the University of Illinois, found that human estrogen-dependent breast cancer cells injected into mice multiply if the mice are fed genistein. His findings were published in Cancer Research in September 1998.
soy dangers
SOY DANGERS:
* High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
* Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.
* Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.
* Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.
* Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.
* Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.
* Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.
* Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
* Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.
* Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.
SOY INFANT FORMULA ” BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR BABIES
* Babies fed soy-based formula have 13,000 to 22,000 times more estrogen compounds in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula.
* Infants exclusively fed soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.
* Male infants undergo a “testosterone surge” during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, baby boys are programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of their sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behavior.
* Pediatricians are noticing greater numbers of boys whose physical maturation is delayed, or does not occur at all, including lack of development of the sexual organs. Learning disabilities, especially in male children, have reached epidemic proportions.
* Soy infant feeding”which floods the bloodstream with female hormones that inhibit testosterone”cannot be ignored as a possible cause for these tragic developments. In animals, soy feeding indicates that phytoestrogens in soy are powerful endocrine disrupters.
* Almost 15 percent of white girls and 50 percent of African-American girls show signs of puberty such as breast development and pubic hair, before the age of eight. Some girls are showing sexual development before the age of three. Premature development of girls has been linked to the use of soy formula and exposure to environmental estrogens such as PCBs and DDE.
this little list of articles suggests that soy protein significantly increases the risk of heart disease. the author of this page notes that the source of the first study is a seventh day adventist university and apparently they are known for often being vegetarians. i had no idea. we'll get to vegetarian claims about heart disease down a bit.
as for meat.
this article cites some specific dangers of carcinogens being formed by burning meat on an open flame. i wonder if it isn't a product of the wood being used. but nonetheless, something to consider.
this site lists a bunch of diseases carried by the animals our meat comes from. unhealthy animals should always be removed from the food chain. this is common sense. it also cites some internet video in which someone poured coke onto meat and then left it uncovered for several hours and when they returned it had big fat juicy maggots in it. i suppose i will try this on my own. but it seems like a spontaneous generation myth to me.
another page on the site lists meat as the cause of asthma. and says that kids who eat at least one beef burger a week are 100% more likely to suffer wheezing problems. (this really means twice as likely. they're trying to trick you.) i've had a bazillion hamburgers in my life and i only have wheezing problems when i have bronchitis (which is water in the lungs generally related to a bacterial infection, not what you shove down your gullet.)
they talk specifically about milk and asthma, too. great. it's thick and contributes to mucus buildup. how is this specifically unhealthy? we make mucus. it's what we do.
the next page is on heart disease. it claims
Heart disease is the no1 killer of humans in the west. The risk of death from a heart attack for the average man on the average meat diet is 50%. A major cause is the cholesterol in our diet. Dietary cholesterol is not necessary for our health, and only serves to foster illness.
When reducing meat, the percentage drops to 15%. By avoiding all animal products, the risk of death from a heart attack drops to 4%. This is a clear indication that a vegetarian/vegan diet is the preferable diet for our bodies. If something you eat makes you more likely to die, it should be clear that it is not part of the bodies natural diet.
i sincerely doubt that half the men in the world die of heart attacks. i can't find anything on these stats. and of course they only cite one study
BBC NEWS | Health | Vegetarian diet 'cuts heart risk'
this article says that a vegetarian diet cuts colesterol by 7%.
of course this article references a study that says eating one serving of fatty fish per week cuts the risk of death by heart attack in older people by 44%. it also says that these results are similar to other studies' findings for middle-aged people.
clearly vegetarians don't want you to eat fish either. this study must have been tainted by industry dollars. clearly.
the veggie page also describes the culpability of meat in colon cancer from this bbc article
BBC NEWS | Health | Red meat cancer risk clue found
funny that they did a diet high in meat and very low in fiber and a diet low in meat and high in fiber and did not control for the fiber. we know full well that high fiber intake is vital to bowel health. this does not preclude meat. it just means don't eat only meat. wow. what a monumental declaration.
they have some stuff about obesity too. but no sources. if there's only a 10-20 lb difference between meat-eaters and vegans, i wonder the reality of the difference. my bet is vegans are more likely to walk or ride a bicycle than meat-eaters. you can lose 40lbs in a month just by walking an hour each day.
there's a page for osteoporosis, but not content at all. i guess they haven't gotten their writers on that one yet. type two diabetes too. which we know generally results from either obesity or just being old.
oh and stroke. but that's a circulation issue and is related to blood pressure. potassium lowers blood pressure (and keeps our muscles working. ask me about that sometime.) and it's found in things like bananas and avocados and melons and stuff. those grow on trees.
they have a page on eggs and dairy with cute pictures of baby chickens and a baby cow as though we're killing them too. please. eggs to be eaten are not fertilized. oh ok they explain it as how we get egg chickens. i loves me some dead babies. but they bring up the cholesterol thing in eggs. we know now that most of the cholesterol in eggs is high density, meaning it's good for you. it activelye reduces low density cholesterol and protects against heart attack. hdl cholesterol can also be found in peanuts. cholesterol is used to build cell membranes, among other things. we like cell membranes. we need a lot of them. the body often makes what it needs, but as long as hdl is higher than ldl, you're fine. my body is supposed to make vitamin d too, but it only does when my job is in season. see: rickets. heavy drinking also contributes to heart disease and stroke but moderate drinking (one per day for men and one per week for women according to studies released last year) reduce the risk for both by 30% - 50% (the numbers are different and one is like 47 and one is like 33 or something, if i recall, the rate of benefit is higher in women). i wonder if the same moderation ideas might be acting in the case of animal source foods (see the fish above) but of course they'd never admit it.
funny bit. the dairy page proclaims how much cow pus is in milk. congratulations. human milk has white blood cells in it which are intended to build and strengthen the human baby's immune system. these cow white blood cells do the same thing. also, pus is not white blood cells, dead white blood cells. so it's really inaccurate to call these pus. also, most protein pills are made of red blood cells. they're delicious. they describe how calves double in weight in 47 days by drinking their mother's milk and suggest that drinking cows milk will do the same to a human. this is ridiculous. also, many studies recently have demonstrated that dairy protein is extra helpful in trimming fat. go to your local health supplement store and ask about the difference between soy and whey protein. soy is for bulking; whey is for trimming.
this study cites the increased risk of prostate cancer with intake of bovine growth hormone. there is a whole new line of organic milks with none of this stuff in it. end of story.
they have a link to tying milk with breast cancer. which actually is titled ovarian, but good for them, they know it's the same thing.
Battle of the bottle | Society | The Guardian
even that article cites that there are several studies that suggest that milk can actually help prevent cancer. my bet is that cancer just happens and we're driving ourselves crazy trying to figure out what is going to kill us this week that was going to save us last week. i'd like to cite the mediterranean question on this. does anyone eat more cheese than italians? and yet italians have lower risks of heart disease and most if not all cancers than americans. probably has to do with the fact that they balance their diet by also eating lots of yummy veggies (especially tomatoes) and drinking red wine and walking a lot. most americans do almost none of those things. man cannot live on bread alone... nor on meat alone. and we're back to moderation.
let's talk about osteoporosis. this site claims that dairy is behind it and that it leeches calcium from bones. because clearly you can get all your calcium from spinach (dark colored green leafies have calcium, but not in sufficient quantities). apparently in china they call it rich ladies' disease. i'd wager that has more to do with a reduction in weight bearing exercise (well known to build strong bones) instead of the cited ice cream killer. the attached (internal and vaguely cited) page lists off a bunch of quotes. they seem to all agree that calcium leeching is related best to a diet too high in protein. this is not the result of dairy, but dairy is a source of protein. so it seems you could probably get the same stuff from drinking soy milk. oh and then that page jumps off topic back to heart disease. way to be convincing.
finally, it blames acne on the hormones in milk. i blame acne on not properly washing my face. who do you think has their head on straight? especially considering that two weeks after starting season (and putting bleach on my face every day) my face always clears right up regardless of my milk intake. how about that.
so, how do we continue this thread? i want someone else to do some digging. i want at least references to scholarly articles. i've done all the digging on the veggie sites anyone ever needs to do. let's get some real data on the healthfulness of animal foods and soy. keep in mind. studies on food are a fairly recent endeavor and so there's a lot of contradiction, a lot of correlative studies, and very little real demonstrably causative relationships. this will probably get very confusing.
of course, the issue with discussing vegetarianism and veganism is the inevitable cries about murder. animals eat other animals; some plants eat animals; and plants are alive, too. christ. just because it wiggles doesn't make it more alive than something that doesn't wiggle.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-24-2007 9:58 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 2 of 3 (397193)
04-24-2007 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
04-22-2007 3:53 AM


thumper the delicious christmas rabbit
bump.
although apparently the only person who really cared about soy only did as a tool to call people names, and not to discuss it rationally. brilliant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-22-2007 3:53 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 05-03-2007 11:39 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 3 of 3 (399118)
05-03-2007 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by macaroniandcheese
04-24-2007 9:58 PM


Re: thumper the delicious christmas rabbit
Anthro:
Need nutrience from meat for cognitive development
Philosophy:
No, read Omnivore's dilemma.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : message to jar
Edited by -messenjah of one, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-24-2007 9:58 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
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