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Author Topic:   Deal or No Deal?
Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5901 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 1 of 73 (445224)
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


I would like to debate 3 major important subjects: Abortion,Feminism,and Homosexual marriages. I notice many religions accept and agree with all 3 of these subjects. Some Catholic churches agree with abortion, not to mention they also agree that Women are equal to men, Though many other Catholic churches disagree with all 3 of these subjects. Its not just the Catholic Churches, but some Jewish Temples and First Baptist Churches also agree with these things being legalized. Some states actually legalized Homosexual marriages too.
My main Argument is to debate wither or not, Some religious cultures Deal and accept abortion,feminism,and homosexual marriages, because some religious women are for equal rights. If a person agrees with abortion, but their religion is against the rights to have an abortion, why does this sometimes steer some religions in another direction? Does Feminism play a role in steering many religions away from their true beliefs?
Deal
Definition: agreement, bargain
No Deal
Definition: disagreement, misunderstanding
Shall we accept these 3 things into some religions[which are against them] or shall we not accept these 3 things into some religions?
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1)
My possession in this Debate is on the No Deal side.
sincerely yours, Amen.

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
[Matthew 27:46]
"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."
[JOB 41:34]
"You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You're looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!" -Ted Bundy

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 73 (445244)
01-01-2008 4:01 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 3 of 73 (445247)
01-01-2008 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


This is a strange topic.
As far as I know, there is little disagreement with the view that religions can decide for themselves on these issues. The public debate is typically on questions of what society should accept, not on what particular religions should accept.

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 73 (445280)
01-01-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


The beliefs of a religious group comprise nothing more than the collective beliefs of those in the group. If the group members alter their views on particular matters, then the religion changes.
Often, a religious group will try to defend its beliefs as being based upon and informed by the authoritative writings upon which the religion is based. Groups holding a contrary view will argue that the text supports their interpretation and not that of the other groups. However, given the fact very diverse groups claim that the same text supports their views, one must conclude that either the groups are not truly basing their views on the text, or the text admits of different interpretations. In the latter case, it is probably most accurate to say that the text doesn't really support either view.
Your position is that those religions that incorporate views that you disagree with are making a deal of some sort (exactly what kind of deal you are talking about is far from clear). This of course is simply another form of an argument that their views are not based on the authoritative text and yours are. You need to understand the difference between compromising one's views for some other reason, and simply having a different interpretation of the authoritative text for the religion. I'm quite certain that those churches that deem homosexuality to be acceptable do not believe that it's wrong but go along to get along. Instead, they believe that there's nothing about homosexuality that goes against what their religion stands for.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Am5n, posted 01-01-2008 6:58 PM subbie has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 73 (445282)
01-01-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


Seems simple
If a particular church doesn't approve of abortions, let the members not have abortions.
If they oppose homosexual marriage, then don't perform homosexual marriages.
If a particular church is afraid of having women as pastors or priests, then let that church not have women as pastors or priests.
I don't see where there is a problem.
If a church wants to be prejudiced and bigots, then they should have the right to be prejudiced and bigots.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 73 (445283)
01-01-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


Stacking up the religions
My main Argument is to debate wither or not, Some religious cultures Deal and accept abortion,feminism,and homosexual marriages, because some religious women are for equal rights. If a person agrees with abortion, but their religion is against the rights to have an abortion, why does this sometimes steer some religions in another direction? Does Feminism play a role in steering many religions away from their true beliefs?
Well, we know that Buddhism does not accept homosexuality. Hinduism is a bit more ambiguous as to where is stands, but I know that homosexuality in India is prohibited. Of the three Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is not condoned either.
Buddhists obviously do not believe abortion is okay because killing any living being is considered, from a Karmic perspective, wrong. Hinduism is even more explicit in its condemnation, as it is considered one of the most heinous things a person can do. The Abrahamic religions are generally in unison, though Judaism seems to be the most tolerant of the practice per capita. That's not to say there aren't many that oppose it, because there are.
While there is a clear duality in Buddhism and Hinduism, there has always been a notion of women not being on the same status as men in society. Caste systems are still very much present in places like India. The three Abrahamic religions are not unified in this aspect whatsoever. Islam being the most repressive of women, Judaism and Christianity generally have no problem with women in positions of power, however, there are clear religious roles that can only be given to males -- priesthoods, being the most obvious.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

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 Message 28 by molbiogirl, posted 01-01-2008 7:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5901 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 7 of 73 (445285)
01-01-2008 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
01-01-2008 4:13 PM


This is a strange topic.
Yes indeed. The title of the topic sounds like that game show I watch on TV! too bad we're not playing for money eh?
As far as I know, there is little disagreement with the view that religions can decide for themselves on these issues.
Correct me if I seem alittle off balance, but are you suggesting that a lot of people, maybe society in general, agree on the same view of which a religion can decide.. wither or not if abortion is accepted in the religion?
I know people can change their beliefs, but how can someones religion accept something, that which the religion "HAS" been against it for how many years?! probably around 2k+ yrs?
Example 1: What would you think if Christianity accepted the practices of the Muslim religion?
The public debate is typically on questions of what society should accept, not on what particular religions should accept.
As of now, it seems many religions are against Society.
sincerely yours, Amen.

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
[Matthew 27:46]
"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."
[JOB 41:34]
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
[Matthew 18:8]
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
[Matthew 18:9]

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 73 (445286)
01-01-2008 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


Does Feminism play a role in steering many religions away from their true beliefs?
How can a religion be steered from its "true beliefs"? I don't know how to figure out what the "true beliefs" of any religion is except by looking at the actual beliefs of its adherents. As the practices and beliefs of those practicing that particular faith change, then so does the "true beliefs" of that faith.

"The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness."
Clearly, he had his own strange way of judging things. I suspect that he acquired it from the Gospels. -- Victor Hugo

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 73 (445287)
01-01-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
01-01-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Stacking up the religions
Of the three Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is not condoned either.
There are a great number of christian sects that not only condone homosexuality, but they fully accept it and celebrate homosexual unions.
Judaism and Christianity generally have no problem with women in positions of power, however, there are clear religious roles that can only be given to males -- priesthoods, being the most obvious.
There are several christian denominations that accept women as clergy.
Are you really so completely unaware of what is happening in the world that you did not know these things? Or are you so arrogant that you believe that any denomination that disagrees with your ideas cannot be christian?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2008 6:25 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2008 6:40 PM subbie has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 73 (445288)
01-01-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
01-01-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Stacking up the religions
Islam being the most repressive of women, Judaism and Christianity generally have no problem with women in positions of power, however, there are clear religious roles that can only be given to males -- priesthoods, being the most obvious.
Of course women can be priests, even Bishops, even Prelates. Just ask Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori. And actually, the Qur'an provides far higher status to women in terms of rights than either the Old or New Testaments.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 11 of 73 (445289)
01-01-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
01-01-2008 6:24 PM


Re: Seems simple
If a particular church doesn't approve of abortions, let the members not have abortions.
If they oppose homosexual marriage, then don't perform homosexual marriages.
If a particular church is afraid of having women as pastors or priests, then let that church not have women as pastors or priests.
I don't see where there is a problem.
If a church wants to be prejudiced and bigots, then they should have the right to be prejudiced and bigots.
I agree as long as they keep their ideals to themselves and not attempt to force them on everyone else.
Edited by bluescat48, : spelling

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 73 (445290)
01-01-2008 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
01-01-2008 2:38 PM


Amen writes:
If a person agrees with abortion, but their religion is against the rights to have an abortion, why does this sometimes steer some religions in another direction?
First of all, let me make it clear that I think a group breaking away from the main religious organization to form their own because of some disagreement is like a crack addict giving up crack cocaine to pick up angel dust.
All religions are based on some sort of bigotry to keep the group together. The "us against them" mentality is probably the strongest motivation to keep the religion alive from one generation to the next. Every once in a while, a group of people are struck with a conflict of faith due to either brainwashing or conscience. They are still addicted to the drug, so they decide to form their own group, one with the religious dogma that conforms more to their new idea of truth.
In other words, no I don't think feminism or any other ideology is directly responsible for the spliting of the churches. It has to do more with the human nature to either recognize or deny basic human rights. Obviously, the catholic church still has a lot of medieval traits left in it to bluntly preach against human rights like they have been doing for centuries.
Does Feminism play a role in steering many religions away from their true beliefs?
True beliefs? Are there such things as true beliefs? All religions, like any other thing, evolves over time. You want proof of this? Have you seen any live witch burning on the 7 o'clock news lately?
Personally, if there are such things as true beliefs, we'd be enslaving other peoples and sadistically torturing and burning witches in the name of god right now.
You are making the very common mistake that every person in every generation makes: "My current religious beliefs are the real true beliefs."

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 13 of 73 (445291)
01-01-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Am5n
01-01-2008 6:31 PM


I know people can change their beliefs, but how can someones religion accept something, that which the religion "HAS" been against it for how many years?! probably around 2k+ yrs?
How can christians claim that their religion is against slavery when the old testament actually lays out rules for when slaves can be taken, and, for almost 2,000 years, the new testament was used to support slavery?
Edited by subbie, : tyop

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 73 (445293)
01-01-2008 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by bluescat48
01-01-2008 6:34 PM


Re: Seems simple
I agree as long as they keep their ideals to themselves and not attempt to force them on everyone else.
Of course. What anyone else does related to those three issues is none of their business.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by bluescat48, posted 01-01-2008 6:34 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 73 (445294)
01-01-2008 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
01-01-2008 6:34 PM


Re: Stacking up the religions
There are a great number of christian sects that not only condone homosexuality, but they fully accept it and celebrate homosexual unions.
Yes, I am aware of that, however, I am going by the texts since this is the source of any religion. There are liberal causes in any religion, as well as conservative views. I am simply going by the traditions of the sacred texts.
Are you really so completely unaware of what is happening in the world that you did not know these things? Or are you so arrogant that you believe that any denomination that disagrees with your ideas cannot be christian?
Subbie, I am fully aware that many people break the mold. I am going by traditional views here as a basis, since this is the source of ANY religion. What people do to mangle it after-the-fact is not a matter of contention.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

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 Message 9 by subbie, posted 01-01-2008 6:34 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 01-01-2008 6:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
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