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Author Topic:   Officer refuses to go to Iraq
jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 4182 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 1 of 41 (322349)
06-16-2006 3:31 PM


Just saw something on Fox News today that upset me a little. Apparently, officer Ehren Watada believes that the war in Iraq is “unlawful,” so he refused to fight (see http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13190993/). A few words came to mind when I saw this (perfidy, cowardice, impotence, etc.), but his story isn’t even what upset me. It’s the reaction he got from the crowd.

Everyone jumped on this pompous f**k Watada bandwagon, using hollow and tactless expressions like the ones that came to my mind when I first heard the story. The reason that these comments are hollow is that these people are sitting in the comfort of this country, flaunting their patriotism knowing full well that they’ll never have to risk their lives to prove themselves.

The reason they’re tactless is that Watada has reasoned that he won’t fight because the war is unlawful. Chances are he’ll be court-martialed for this, so I’m sure he’s fully aware of the negative feedback he’ll get. Do people really think that just because they say “what about your friends in the military” and “what of the people who have already died” that he’ll say, “Ok, I guess you’re right. I’m no longer inclined to believe that the war is unlawful.” Of course he isn’t going to say this because it doesn’t logically follow. I got the impression that people don’t give a s**t about his views, and are only voicing their opinions to have that nice little smug aftereffect (see link to see what kind of smug I’m referring to).

My point is that if people actually worried about this officer and the decision he was making, they’d address his point. I say this because if he truly believes what he said, then most people should agree with him. Before you respond saying, “What are you talking about!? I don’t agree with that at all,” I’d like you to consider the hypothetical scenario that some officer refused to serve Hitler’s “final solution to the Jewish problem.” This person would probably be considered a hero, and worthy of our greatest praise. Similarly, if Bush made some ethically repugnant command, should Watada serve him? I believe that we should be trying to convince Watada that Bush is aiming to bring peace and prosperity to Iraq, while minimizing US military intervention. Though the “true intentions” and effectiveness of his plan are debatable, what is being done is for the sake of Iraq, which in turn affects the security of our nation. If people care about his opinion at all, they should attack him under this light.

Just thought I'd voice my opinion because it seems to be pretty controversial.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 2 of 41 (322366)
06-16-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jmrozi1
06-16-2006 3:31 PM


Apparently, officer Ehren Watada believes that the war in Iraq is “unlawful,”

what war?


אָרַח

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2217 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 41 (322395)
06-16-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jmrozi1
06-16-2006 3:31 PM


i admire your aproach to this thread even though i do disagree with your gut reaction that conscientious objection is simply a guise for cowardice.

that's about it.


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jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 4182 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 4 of 41 (322424)
06-16-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
06-16-2006 6:16 PM


Crowd Mentality
Thanks! And you're absolutely right; my gut reaction to this incident was an unfair one. However, I kept an open mind, and my opinion of him changed after considering his story. Though I still disagree with what he did, I didn't maintain my first impression.

And I think given the same chance, many of the people in the crowd would be able to make the same transition. However, when part of a group, a person tends to be more narrow-minded and follows the emotion and rationalizations of the crowd. It's like what Tommy Lee Jones said in MIB, "A person is smart. People are stupid." I'm probably not immune to this commonality, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Edited by jmrozi1, : added subtitle


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iano
Member (Idle past 230 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 41 (322537)
06-17-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jmrozi1
06-16-2006 3:31 PM


Black Gold
Though the “true intentions” and effectiveness of his plan are debatable, what is being done is for the sake of Iraq, which in turn affects the security of our nation.

If debatable, I would disagree that the motivation for what is being done in Iraq has anything at all to do with benefitting the Iraqi people. Benefits might well be side effects but they never informed the motivation - except in so far as they assisted and enabled expression of the motivation.

The core motivation? Security of your nations (and by extension mine) desire for a secure oil supply. Secure oil supplies mean world economic stability.

Someone has to have a grip on the balance of power in the region. It might as well be the U.S.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 6 of 41 (322755)
06-17-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
06-17-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Black Gold
Someone has to have a grip on the balance of power in the region. It might as well be the U.S.

Hell yeah. Acutally, I don't like the way Bush went about supporting the war--lying to us about a bunch of shit and using fake claims to justify it. It would have been better had he said--Saddam is evil, we are going to finish the job we started in the early 90s, and oh yeah, while there, we may as well take over their oil. He shouldn't have said that Saddam has WMDs, is linked to Al-Queda, and some of that other shit. We never found the WMDs, but he may have moved them. As to being linked to AL-Queda, it's false, and he knew--he just wanted a "moral" justification for war. Unfortunately, there is no "moral" justification for war. Espececially from the view of Clausewitz--war is nothing more than a power play. It had been a good ten years since our last major war, and we had had some bummers--somalia the biggest (or only). SO we kick Saddam's ass to show that, you know what, we're still kicking, and you guys can't do shit against us, we'll do what we want, because we have the power.

We're not the first nation to do this, nor will we be the last. It's just a part of the whole idea of the nation-state, and war is necessary (granted, I'm not about to put my life on the line, which is why I really like all this robotic stuff DARPA's coming up with, just so long as its not used to control us) to stay in power.

Not that that has helped OUR oil prices. I was looking at figures recently, and Exxon-mobil is ripping us off. You wouldn't imagine their approximate profit margine.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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iano
Member (Idle past 230 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 7 of 41 (323306)
06-19-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by kuresu
06-17-2006 10:43 PM


Re: Black Gold
Not that that has helped OUR oil prices. I was looking at figures recently, and Exxon-mobil is ripping us off. You wouldn't imagine their approximate profit margine.

Those prices would pale into insignificance compared to what would happen were there some implosion in a volatile middle east. The lesser of two economic evils I imagine the thinking to be

As for you take on the art of Geopolitics. Whilst Bushes way might involve lying and deceit it did allow the job to get done. Such honesty as you require of him does not for effective politics make.

Like, if your going to get a media-influenced world opinion to swallow a bitter pill its better to file off the square edges first.


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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 8 of 41 (323470)
06-19-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jmrozi1
06-16-2006 3:31 PM


This guy obviously applied for the wrong job. He should've applied for a job, where he can make the decision i we go to war or not.

It's ok if he wants to protest, but he signed up for a duty. He is free to say what he wants, because people actually went to war.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 9 of 41 (323471)
06-19-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by iano
06-19-2006 2:12 PM


Re: Black Gold
Sand off the edges, sure, but not by lying, at times purposefully. Honesty is much more important, expecially considering if you get caught lying. It's his lying that's gotten his poll ratings so low
(well, at least partially responsible). At least he hasn't said "I am not a crook", yet.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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iano
Member (Idle past 230 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 41 (323483)
06-19-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by kuresu
06-19-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Black Gold
My own understanding of the strategic importance of oil to the worlds economy leads me to thinking that lying and deceit are only the tip of the iceberg of what has and is going on.

Neither do I suppose that the President of the United States is the man making all the decisions here. He has a veritable nest of vipers to contend with both inside and outside his team.

Its Mr President... not Fuhrher.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 11 of 41 (323510)
06-19-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
06-19-2006 6:57 PM


Re: Black Gold
the lying is just the tip. our gov't's been lying to us for over a half-century at least, most famously started with the whole Roswell incident.

And he isn't the only man making decisions--or at least he hasn't realized it. There was a political cartoon just recently in our local paper, and Bush is surrounded by his cronies, and the cronies are in saying--"we've decided that you are the decider", or something to that effect. He just thinks he is.

And may we never have a Fuhrher.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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Tal
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 12 of 41 (325795)
06-24-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by kuresu
06-17-2006 10:43 PM


Re: Black Gold
Hell yeah. Acutally, I don't like the way Bush went about supporting the war--lying to us about a bunch of shit and using fake claims to justify it.

Such as?

We never found the WMDs, but he may have moved them.

Washington Post - 500 Chemical weapons declassified

I'm not going to get into the tired "there were no WMD" debate again. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are/were WMD that coalition forces have found in Iraq. This particular find has just been declassified. As I've stated from the beginning, there will be more to follow.

It would have been better had he said--Saddam is evil, we are going to finish the job we started in the early 90s, and oh yeah, while there, we may as well take over their oil.

The Iraqi's control their own oil. One of the key points forwarded by Kerry and Feingold the other day was the terrorist hunt gone wrong supported by a thinly veiled "search for WMDs." Some folks continue to forget the 11 years of inspection obstruction conducted by the ex-regime. One of the primary obligations for the cease fire from Sandbox One included the disclosure and destruction of all WMDs possessed by Iraq. After the ex-regime fired numerous SCUD missles at non-coalition nations during Sandbox One, the US wanted to make sure no calculated petulance by the ex-regime could spin the entire region out of control.

In January of 1995, during a Joint Command level CPX in FRG, I watched a live satellite feed of a SCUD launch from Iraq into Iran. You could have heard a pin drop for about 60 seconds. Then, the shite hit the fan. Needless to say the CPX took about 2 hours to resume.

Folks also forget when you get your ass kicked in a military action, sign on the dotted line to cease getting your ass kicked, then balk at complying with the terms above that dotted line, your ass is subject to getting kicked without warning at any time. Yes, we wanted that turd to quit stirring the pot. Shrug on the reason forwarded to the rest of the world for doing so. If the rest of the world won't step forward to play world cop as it should be, *SNARF* them when we ram a cattle prod up someone's ass to underline our willingness to do so.

As to this LT that isn't going to Iraq; well that's his decision. I hope he has a law degree and/or has read my above post, because he obviously doesn't understand the word illegal. He will most likely be court-martialled and sentenced to whatever. Fine by me. Its an all volunteer army. If he didn't want to be here, he had a choice.


People don't kill people
Cartoons kill people

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1957
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 13 of 41 (325805)
06-24-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tal
06-24-2006 7:18 PM


Re: Black Gold
From your linked article:
Most important, those intelligence officials say "There is no evidence today of any post-1991 WMD munitions," that is, munitions that were produced after U.N. inspections and sanctions began after Operation Desert Storm in early 1991.

The threshold for labeling something WMD in this world is low, if it exists at all. Many of the "chemical munitions" found in Iraq were even "unfilled" shells. That is, they had never been filled with chemical agent, according to the summary. But, as Rumsfeld says, "they are weapons of mass destruction."

Yup those WMD sure are/were a threat.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

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Tal
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 14 of 41 (325816)
06-24-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by DrJones*
06-24-2006 7:43 PM


Re: Black Gold
As for the effeciency of the munitions click hereand read the following very carefully.

... mustard gas in its solid form has been found to last underground for up to ten years. This is because, in an environment where the concentration of water is relatively low ... form(s) a protective layer around the bulk material, and therefore prevent(s) further reaction.

Now, imagine an IED with "degraded" mustard packed into the mix. It's the same premise behind a nuclear/radioactive material dirty bomb. You might not get the pretty mushroom cloud, but you sure create a physical/psychological/media circus mess in the process and that that makes a pretty statement.

A small contingent of bio hacks turned the US into a frenzied "where's the anthrax" herd of sheep (pun intended) right after 9/11. If you've ever had the pleasure of going through "deliberate decon" whether in training, or for real, you understand what a *SNARF* the physical cleanup entails. That involves trained military. Now, substitute some of the sheep we swear/swore to protect. Get the point? The simple fact Iraq used chemical munitions on the Kurds never seems to get mentioned any time the "no WMDS in Iraq" flock of chickens start squawking.

Edited by Tal, : No reason given.


People don't kill people
Cartoons kill people

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jar
Member
Posts: 31506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 15 of 41 (325818)
06-24-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tal
06-24-2006 8:04 PM


Re: Black Gold
Nobody argues about weapons of Mass Hysteria. It's true that this Administration not only has found and explioted them, they are one.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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