Fundamentalist Christian organizations are the ones who ship thousands of boxes of blankets, clothes, food and other goods for relief worldwide to the oppressed and persecuted.
Fundamentalist Islamic organizations are the ones who kill, kill, kill themselves and the largest number of innocent victims for selfish reasons to enjoy wine, women and song in the afterlife and the advancemet of their tyranny around the globe.
Yet so many Christophobics in this town insist that all religious fundamentalists are of the same stripe. This's nuts!
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-25-2003]
I intended to indicate degrees rather than per centage in my title, but I see "%" doesn't serve as a very good substitute. I was trying to keep the title from being any longer than it already is. My appologies. I guess most will get the message.
The following exchange took place in the Holmes UN thread which inspired this thread so as to not allow that thread to wander off topic:
Perhaps a more rational approach is to look at it for what it is. While you are correct that Islamic Fundamentalists launched a horrific attack on the US, it was a group of Islamic Fundamentalists. And we should not suddenly become caught in the same mindtrap they are.
But the fundamentalists are caught in the same mindtrap. There is little difference between fundamentalists of any strip.
How many Christian fundies are blowing themselves up, killing all they can with them in the name of Christian Biblical fundamentalism? When are you ever going to get real and over your Christophobic bent?? This is an outright blatant falsehood, and you well know it in your heart, Ned.
Excuse me, falsehood? Did I say Christian fundies were blowing themselves up?
Ned, you were clearly addressing a statement by Holmes who was addressing the violence of Islam which I had originally alluded to when you declared all fundamentalists were of the same stripe. You're a classic spinster when it comes to wriggling out of your own falacies -- so much so that a separate thread is needed to untangle what you've spun up.
While the catholics and protestants there are acting in a particularly mindless way I'm not sure that they qualify as "fundies" otherwise. I wouldn't take this as an example but I don't know the details of thier specific beliefs.
Buz is right. They are opposites. Fundamentalist Muslims believe it is appropriate to kill yourself for something you believe in. Fundamentalist Christians would never have the courage to do so.
Other than that, there's not much difference. Militant factions of either group seem to have no trouble killing other people for their beliefs. Neither group is truly "fundamental", either - both groups invent as many phoney justifications for their actions as any member of any other religion.
180 degrees difference? No - merely a difference of degree.
I'm no expert (and I don't know what thread this stemmed from, so it might have already been mentioned), but isn't time a major factor in this? It seems to me like fundies run in packs and each pack has its moment in the sun. Right now, the violent Islam fundie position is hip just like the violent Christian fundie position was hip during the Crusades. I don't see why the religion itself should be blamed if both religions have had peaceful fundie camps at some period in time. My World History's a bit rusty, but I don't think Islam has ALWAYS been like this. Didn't they start off with years of conquest and then kinda settle down?
EDIT: Bad word choice.
[This message has been edited by Tsegamla, 12-26-2003]
Let us not forget the fundie Christians of a while back who shot and killed abrotion clinic doctors.So we can modify your statement to be: Fundamentalist Muslims believe it is appropriate to kill yourself for something you believe in.Fundamentalist Christians believe it is appropriate to kill someone else for what you believe in.
Of course this is pigeonholing people as not all fundamentalists are of this level of violence. However I am sure if here on North American soil war were a daily occurence as it is in other parts of the world you would find that such extreme levels of violence would be far more common.It is easy to forget that War changes all the rules that we take for granted.
------------------ Chemical kinetics firmly restrains time's arrow in the taut bow of thermodynamics for milliseconds to millennia.
1. The statements in my opening post are in reference to BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS. Christian fundamentalists are those Christians who follow the Biblical fundamentals set forth by Christ and his apostles in the New Testament as well as the examples practiced in the lives of these people.
2. The statements in my opening post are also in reference to Muslim fundamentalists who follow the Muslim fundamentals set forth by Muhammed and his apostles in the Quran as well as the examples practiced in the lives of these people.
3. The responses so far in refutation of my statements are not addressing the statements I've made, but rather have alluded to those people in the past who have deviated from the FUNDAMENTALS set forth in the New Testament by Jesus and his desciples/apostles. These are not Christian fundamentalists.
4. The word "fundamentalist" means one who believes and follows the basic foundational literal fundamentals/foundational basics of (in this case) one's religion/book. You might say "one who goes by the book and example of the author/originator of the religion/book."
5. Jesus and his apostles and desciples never killed or persecuted anyone and when Peter cut off the ear of the man among the band who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus restored the ear immediately, rebuking Peter. On the other hand, Mohammed and his desciples/apostles killed, enslaved and persecuted thousands and taught that this was rightious practice and those who did so would be rewarded by the Muslim god, Allah for doing so.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-26-2003]
You are not being fair. You are setting the definitions so that your argument is correct even though those definitions are not true on the ground.
There are plenty of fundamentalist Xians, who say they are fundamentalist Xians, who kill others in the name of God and God's laws. You yourself berate homosexuals and muslims rather than withholding judgement and turning the other cheek (some pretty major teachings). It is pretty obvious you are even advocating violence against both groups from the state, in the name of your traditions.
Does that mean you are not a fundamentalist Xian because there are some Xians who accept homosexuality and don't want to war on muslims? Or does that mean your version of fundamentalism gets some leeway the more violent violent Xians don't get?
On the flipside there are plenty of fundamentalist muslims that do not like violence at all. They feel that (other than when attacked first) there are no messages in the Koran which compel one to violent action.
Just like fundamentalist Xians, there are very violent fundamentalist denominations of Islam. Why do muslims not get to divorce themselves from the violent examples of Islam as you conveniently have done so for yourself?
It appears to hinge on examples from the religious text. What example each prophet has set in their lives.
Yet Mohammed was being persecuted in a time of war, which is unlike Jesus and so he has a very different life. Yes, he does not teach to turn the other cheek like Jesus, but he sets down some pretty strong rules of engagement. Interestingly enough these rules would condemn suicide bombings, especially of innocents. You do know this right?
So by YOUR definition all those muslims who engage in suicide bombings or attack innocents are not fundamentalist. This is something many (peaceful) fundamentalist Islamic teachers who oppose groups like Al-Queda, as well as mainstream muslims have been saying for some time.
Many violent Xians do not use Jesus as their example. Like you, they have used members and teachings of other parts of the Bible to preach their examples of hate and murder. You must grant me that outside of Jesus and his direct disciples, most of the Bible's prophets murder on grander scales even than Mohammed. And they do not teach peace at all, except the peace that comes after other nations are vanquished and dead.
So are Xians wrong when quoting beyond Jesus. You insist you are not when condemning homosexuals.
And as I mentioned earlier, Jesus's direct teachings are to turn the other cheek and not to judge others. Yet this whole thread is about judgement and stemming from another thread where you admonish people not to turn the other cheek.
Please define what a true fundamentalist Xian is then, and how you can possibly fit into it while excluding other violent Xians. And if this can be done, why can't this be done for muslims? In doing this last bit I'd really like you to explain how terrorists get to be labelled as fundamentalist when it is clearly against the Koran.
quote:Jesus and his apostles and desciples never killed or persecuted anyone
No, Jesus just made a fig tree wither for having the audacity of not bearing fruit out of season:
Matthew 21:19: And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
The Bible also espouses animal abuse:
Hebrews 12:20: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
The Bible even exhorts us to kill people:
Romans 1:31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Luke 19:27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Paul makes someone go blind:
Acts 13:8: But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
13:9: Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
13:10: And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
13:11: And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Paul compares himself to David...but David was hardly merciful:
2 Samuel 12:31: And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
Let's not forget that Peter actually kills somebody:
5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
5:3: But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
5:9: Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
5:10: Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Jesus threatens a crippled man with a worse fate:
John 5:14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
So any claims that Christianity is a peaceful religion simply aren't true.