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Author Topic:   continental drift
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (6729)
03-13-2002 3:59 AM


Most sane creationists claim that the continents split during the Great Flood.

so may I ask this:

can you demonstrate that it would be possible for the Atlantic to spread at a rate of 1/2 mile per hour?


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joz
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 65 (6734)
03-13-2002 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-13-2002 3:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
can you demonstrate that it would be possible for the Atlantic to spread at a rate of 1/2 mile per hour?

Its about 3000 miles from England (London Heathrow) to the US (Boston Logan) a rate of 1/2 a mile per hour would mean they only drifted apart 250 days ago.....

Where TF did you get 1/2 a mile per hour from?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Joe Meert, posted 03-13-2002 8:40 AM joz has responded

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 3 of 65 (6735)
03-13-2002 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by joz
03-13-2002 8:28 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Its about 3000 miles from England (London Heathrow) to the US (Boston Logan) a rate of 1/2 a mile per hour would mean they only drifted apart 250 days ago.....

Where TF did you get 1/2 a mile per hour from?


He's being generous to the ye-creationist crowd. If they drifted apart during the 40 days of tumult it would be more like 3 miles/hour.

Cheers

Joe Meert


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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by joz, posted 03-13-2002 8:50 AM Joe Meert has responded
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 Message 7 by TrueCreation, posted 03-13-2002 4:16 PM Joe Meert has responded

    
joz
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 65 (6736)
03-13-2002 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Joe Meert
03-13-2002 8:40 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:
He's being generous to the ye-creationist crowd. If they drifted apart during the 40 days of tumult it would be more like 3 miles/hour.

Cheers

Joe Meert


Ah I see.....

Good question, isn`t there some half assed theory on Walt Browns site about reduced friction allowing it or something?


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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


(1)
Message 5 of 65 (6737)
03-13-2002 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by joz
03-13-2002 8:50 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Ah I see.....

Good question, isn`t there some half assed theory on Walt Browns site about reduced friction allowing it or something?


JM: As a matter of fact, there is. John Baumgardner has also altered the viscosity of the mantle in his models to some ridiculous level in order to facilitate rapid drift of the continents. I've invited Walt to develop his idea and submit it for publication (see http://www.indstate.edu/gga/pmag/walt_brown.htm), but no response so far. Creationists can always invent a 'mighta been' for any individual question, but collectively, their ideas don't hang together very well (see my comments under the thread 'inconsistencies in ye-creationism' for another example of this. One last 'vent'...have you ever noticed how creationists claim expertise in just about every field, but allow that all 'evolutionists' are brainwashed?

Cheers

Joe Meert


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edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 6 of 65 (6742)
03-13-2002 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Joe Meert
03-13-2002 8:40 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:
He's being generous to the ye-creationist crowd. If they drifted apart during the 40 days of tumult it would be more like 3 miles/hour.

Cheers

Joe Meert


What I find even more interesting is how the rate of drift suddenly dropped to a more sedate cm/yr pace just before humans began to observe and navigate the oceans. Kind of the same way that the speed of light suddenly stopped decreasing in the 1960's when we began to be able to get accurate measurements. These were just lucky coincidences, I guess.


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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 65 (6754)
03-13-2002 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Joe Meert
03-13-2002 8:40 AM


"He's being generous to the ye-creationist crowd. If they drifted apart during the 40 days of tumult it would be more like 3 miles/hour."
--Hm.. I don't know where you got a limit of 40 days for this process, also, the atlantic plates shift from the middle outward, so you would divide by two.

------------------


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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 65 (6788)
03-14-2002 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by TrueCreation
03-13-2002 4:16 PM


so TC- where is your evidence that this kind of miraculously rapid continental drift (which would have caused massive tsunamis that would have most likely destroyed the ark)was feasible, and why it has never been observed.

I think creationism's fate is literally sealed below the permafrost of the Antarctic, however. If we could only get to the fossils, we could determine whether there were indeed any modern animals living on the continent. If there weren't, then we could assume that all life ceased to exist on the continent after it drifted too far south to support organisms.


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Replies to this message:
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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 9 of 65 (6813)
03-14-2002 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by TrueCreation
03-13-2002 4:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"
--Hm.. I don't know where you got a limit of 40 days for this process, also, the atlantic plates shift from the middle outward, so you would divide by two.


JM: Isn't that how long the tumult of the flood lasted according to the Bible? After 40 days, the flood waters persisted, but there is no indication of a tumult. You are assuming of course that the Atlantic is the only place that rifted and that the Euopean-North American boundary represents the greatest amount of separation. If that is your assumption, then the 1/2 spreading rate would be 1.5 mph. If you look at a global picture, the rate of 3 mph is something you must contend with. Either way, this rate is some 10^8-10^9 faster than we observe today. There are some serious physical problems with such rates


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 Message 7 by TrueCreation, posted 03-13-2002 4:16 PM TrueCreation has responded

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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (6814)
03-14-2002 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Joe Meert
03-14-2002 11:40 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:
There are some serious physical problems with such rates

no there aren't- in the magical eorld of creationism, anything is possible


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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 65 (6878)
03-14-2002 11:57 PM


i'd like to push this topic

someone demonstrate that this kind of drift is possible, and the mechanism driving it.


Replies to this message:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 65 (6985)
03-16-2002 2:47 AM


pushing (again)

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 65 (7009)
03-16-2002 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Joe Meert
03-14-2002 11:40 AM


"JM: Isn't that how long the tumult of the flood lasted according to the Bible? After 40 days, the flood waters persisted,"
--This is how long rain fell, not the span of time for tectonic shifting.

"but there is no indication of a tumult. "
--What would you expect to find differently with a tumulted Flooding of the world?

"You are assuming of course that the Atlantic is the only place that rifted and that the Euopean-North American boundary represents the greatest amount of separation."
--Oh of course not, you were addressing the atlantic plates. So I was making sure we know that they spread from the spreading center at the mid-atlantic ridge, thus it is an outward process (and you would divide by two). The pacific plate is the largest oceanic plate, though it's rate of subduction and its spreading regions are literally 10 times faster than the atlantic.

"If that is your assumption, then the 1/2 spreading rate would be 1.5 mph. If you look at a global picture, the rate of 3 mph is something you must contend with."
--it wouldn't be 1.5mph because the time span for this 'rush' isn't a mere 40 days, though this would have been when it was the most active.

"Either way, this rate is some 10^8-10^9 faster than we observe today. There are some serious physical problems with such rates"
--I would probably say it would be 500-2000 times faster than we observe today at some point in time.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (7010)
03-16-2002 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by quicksink
03-14-2002 11:57 PM


"someone demonstrate that this kind of drift is possible, and the mechanism driving it."
--Magma upwelling (I'm sure you've studied geology and the pangea breakaway) and heavy oceanic crust pushing against continental plates resulting in rapid subduction.

------------------


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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1052 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 15 of 65 (7011)
03-16-2002 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by TrueCreation
03-16-2002 11:47 AM


Has it occurred to either of you that there is a balance between upwelling and subduction?

For every mile of new (upwelling), hot, barren, underwater magma, there would be a mile of fertile, soil covered, former potential habitat being subducted into the magma.

How does this figure into the big picture?

By the way: Injecting all that magma into the sea is like dropping hot rocks in a pail of water. American Indians used to cook that way. The mineralization and heating of the ocean could not be healthy for sea life, and the separation of the continents would present a huge obstacle to subsequent repopulation of the "earth".


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