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Author Topic:   Gay marraige and the end of the world
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 195 (277467)
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


Well I'm not going to say what you think I am going to say, but I am sure I got your attention.
I have a question for my fellow EVC'rs.
If right wing fundie conservatives are not worried about hurting our enviroment, because they say that God doesn't care, and the end of the world is near anyway, then why do they care if people are gay or not?
Why do they care about gay marraige?
I mean whats the difference, the end of the world is coming right?
God will judge everyone right?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by berberry, posted 01-09-2006 10:43 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 5 by Nuggin, posted 01-09-2006 11:51 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 6 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-09-2006 5:56 PM riVeRraT has replied
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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 195 (277469)
01-09-2006 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


I'm not so sure that religion is at the heart of the fundamentalists's abhorrence of either nature or homosexuality; rather, I think that religion is but an excuse for maintaining their prejudices.
Who ever said that fundies are logically consistent anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 7:06 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 195 (277471)
01-09-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


quote:
If right wing fundie conservatives are not worried about hurting our enviroment, because they say that God doesn't care, and the end of the world is near anyway, then why do they care if people are gay or not?
Why do they care about gay marraige?
They stand to profit hugely from plundering the environment, while gay marriage doesn't particularly benefit them financially.
Also, when it comes to fundamentalists and sex, they go pretty crazy.
They are obsessed with it because they are so repressed and immature in their attitudes, and therefore are over-interested in controlling everyone else's sexuality.But it always seems to come back to bite them is the ass. Here's onl the latest incident of this type. They happen all the time:
link
OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- A pastor who has spoken out against homosexuality was arrested after propositioning a male undercover police officer outside a hotel, authorities said.
As the Rev. Lonnie Latham, 59, left jail Wednesday, he said "I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."
Latham, a member of the Southern Baptist Convention's executive committee, was arrested Tuesday and charged with offering to engage in an act of lewdness, Capt. Jeffrey Becker said.

This message is a reply to:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 195 (277525)
01-09-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
If right wing fundie conservatives are not worried about hurting our enviroment, because they say that God doesn't care, and the end of the world is near anyway, then why do they care if people are gay or not? Why do they care about gay marraige?
That's a pretty darn good question, rat. I've been following your debate with arachnophilia on this topic and I want to thank you for continuing to think about this issue and not just assume that you know all there is to know. I used to take you for a pig-headed fundie bigot, but from my interaction with you over the past year or so on other issues I realize that you aren't pig-headed. Perhaps you're still a bit of a bigot, but you seem to be open to that notion and as far as I'm concerned we're all bigots of one type or another. The question is whether we're willing to admit our bigotry and work on it. You seem to be doing that in regards to some gays, just as I'm trying to do it in regard to some fundies.
I take you at your word that you don't mean to want gays treated unfairly. The trouble is that you really are bigoted in this respect, rat. I'm not trying to be pejorative here, I'm simply stating what I see as a fact. You will not give us the consideration that perhaps there really isn't anything wrong with us. You're convinced that what we do sexually is a sin, and that there is no way that sex between gays can be performed sinlessly. Therefore, to you, it must seem that there is no need for gay marriage, since it would simply validate what you see as sinful and thus lead people away from Christ.
The trouble, as I see it, is that even if you're right you'll never convince me this way. If you challenge what I am - which whether you realize it or not is exactly what you're doing - what choice do I have but to join the battle? I want to enjoy the exact same rights and priviliges you enjoy under the law; not in your church, but only under the law. That means that I want to be able to marry the person I love.
That's all I want, rat. Equal treatment under the law. Why is that so difficult? Why is it so necessary that you deny me the pleasures of life which you're able to take for granted? You have the full right to the pursuit of happiness, but since marriage is an integral part of happiness for most of us you have more right to happiness than I do. That's the fact. It's not fair and I'm tired of being a second-class citizen in my own country. I deserve equal treatment under the law.
Once again, I believe you when you say you're trying to be open-minded, rat, so please give me an honest answer. What threat would my marriage to the person I love pose to you or to your children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 7:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 11:04 PM berberry has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 5 of 195 (277537)
01-09-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


The Gay Buffet
It's pretty simple actually.
Pick anyone who's vocal in the anti-gay movement.
They are either in the closet themselves or have a disowned son. It's so common, that's it's not even a cliche, it borders on being a law of nature.
I'm misquoting the Daily Show but it went something like this?
"If you're gay and looking for a date, check out the anti-gay rallies. They are like a gay buffet."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 7:06 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
GoodIntentions 
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 195 (277607)
01-09-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 7:06 AM


Although I don't spend that much time here, I could have sworn that you have at least once or twice identified yourself as both a fundy and a gay marriage opponent. Have you changed your mind or have you been hacked?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 7:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 11:11 PM GoodIntentions has replied

  
GoodIntentions 
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 195 (277610)
01-09-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
01-09-2006 10:43 AM


quote:
What threat would my marriage to the person I love pose to you or to your children?
From what I remember riverrat had written a while back, he said that allowing gay marriage would violate his rights by forcing him to accept something that he considers immoral. If you think about it, he is kinda right. The institution of marriage isn't something like the lutheran church or the catholic church. It's a legal institution, meaning it's universal to everyone. When you and someone else identify yourselves as married, it's not like saying "we're lutherans" or "we're catholics," where everyone can either agree or disagree whether you're really lutherans or catholics. When you say you're married, everyone has to agree with you.
Oops, accidently pressed submit.
What I was saying, when you say that you're married, even the ones that think you're an abomination, they have to agree that you have been accepted into the institution of marriage. Since they live in the same country and society as you do, it can be viewed that by agreeing with something so evil, they are just as damned as you.
No, I don't think most fundies object to gay marriage because of this reason. I don't even think that many of them have the mental capacity to actually read and understand the bible. However, at the top of their very linear food chain, you're going to encounter something like this.
This message has been edited by GoodIntentions, 01-09-2006 06:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 8 of 195 (277620)
01-09-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by GoodIntentions
01-09-2006 6:04 PM


When you and someone else identify yourselves as married, it's not like saying "we're lutherans" or "we're catholics," where everyone can either agree or disagree whether you're really lutherans or catholics. When you say you're married, everyone has to agree with you.
They have to agree that you are legally married, but they are in no way forced to accept the marriage in a spiritual, religious, or moral sense. That remains an individual choice.
For example: I'm sure there are (unfortunately) many in the US that still refuse to accept interracial marriages as valid on moral grounds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-09-2006 6:04 PM GoodIntentions has replied

Replies to this message:
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GoodIntentions 
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 195 (277636)
01-09-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by pink sasquatch
01-09-2006 6:42 PM


quote:
They have to agree that you are legally married, but they are in no way forced to accept the marriage in a spiritual, religious, or moral sense. That remains an individual choice.
You are still not thinking in the mindset of a fundy. To them, the state policy should include certain moral standards, specifically those of the christian fundies. Forget what's right or good for this country.
Remember that not too long ago a whole country could be excommunicated making all its citizens hellbound just because the king did something the pope didn't like. Even nowadays, some christian fundies still breach that a whole society is condemned because a certain "immoral" policy is imposed.
In this particular case, they don't care about individual rights. They don't care about how they are hurting other fellow human beings. They have been indoctrinated to think that it's their goal in life to push for a theocracy, and the gay marriage issue, which in my opinion shouldn't be an issue at all, is just another way for them to make their statement.
quote:
For example: I'm sure there are (unfortunately) many in the US that still refuse to accept interracial marriages as valid on moral grounds.
I don't think this is a very good comparason. We, as a society, have evolved to a point where everyone has generally agreed that racism is bad. We still have not gotten anywhere near that far with homophobia and some other -isms. In fact, it is still A-OK and even encouraged in some communities to fully identify oneself as a homophobe.
Just a month ago, I was attending a meeting held by the student racial diversity something something, mostly composing of afro-americans (aka blacks), on a local campus. I was there because I had nothing better to do. While sitting, I overheard some black "dudes" complain on how they are sick of racist remarks they have heard before. I can't say I have encountered much racism before so I continued to listen. The other people around him started agreeing in their black slangs and such.
Anyway, I just couldn't help myself and I casually asked the group, "what do you think of homophobia?" To my surprise, most of them outright identified themselves as homophobes and proud of it. The ones that didn't actually say they were homophobes went ahead and agreed with the others. After that, they began to make homophobic remarks and how those "fags" needed to be shot.
The point is among the commoners homophobia isn't viewed as wrong or hurtful. How can we begin to change people's minds in this matter if most of them are religious and regularly attend weekly preachings by preachers who are bigots themselves?
Earlier this year... rather earlier last year a friend of mine told me that he strongly believed that our best hope is to wait for not-so quiet minority to die off (from old age) and moose's "quiet majority" to turn gay so our cause will be theirs.
This message has been edited by GoodIntentions, 01-09-2006 09:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 195 (277638)
01-09-2006 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GoodIntentions
01-09-2006 9:45 PM


We, as a society, have evolved to a point where everyone has generally agreed that racism is bad.
You haven't spent much time in the South....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-09-2006 9:45 PM GoodIntentions has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 195 (277640)
01-09-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GoodIntentions
01-09-2006 9:45 PM


I don't think this is a very good comparason. We, as a society, have evolved to a point where everyone has generally agreed that racism is bad. We still have not gotten anywhere near that far with homophobia and some other -isms. In fact, it is still A-OK and even encouraged in some communities to fully identify oneself as a homophobe.
Just a month ago, I was attending a meeting held by the student racial diversity something something, mostly composing of afro-americans (aka blacks), on a local campus. I was there because I had nothing better to do. While sitting, I overheard some black "dudes" complain on how they are sick of racist remarks they have heard before. I can't say I have encountered much racism before so I continued to listen. The other people around him started agreeing in their black slangs and such.
Anyway, I just couldn't help myself and I casually asked the group, "what do you think of homophobia?" To my surprise, most of them outright identified themselves as homophobes and proud of it. The ones that didn't actually say they were homophobes went ahead and agreed with the others. After that, they began to make homophobic remarks and how those "fags" needed to be shot.
i'd have to agree. it's really apparent the kind of separation that exists in this society. we don't really think about it, but view it this way. i go to work and i tell them about how i went home with a headache last night and my boyfriend put me in a hot bath and lit some candles and rubbed my shoulders and rubbed my head and made me tea and then snuggled me all night until i felt better. everyone responds to how sweet that is. what is i was dating a chick? ok bad example. cause lesbians are acceptable (as long as both chicks are hot lol). imagine if i was a guy. i wouldn't even be able to talk about what my boyfriend did for me. i understood this kind of superficially until last year. then one of my friends moved in with me. he had pink hair. he's adorable. anyways. his boyfriend came to visit him for a while (out of state). i was telling a friend of mine about it at work (where i worked at the time) and it was all cool but one of my managers overheard and was like "how can you live in a house where that is going on?" he didn't really have any issue with the idea of someone being gay but actual evidence and confrontation with gay sex was simply too much for his brain.
there's a whole segment of people who simply can't share their lives with those around them because of the misunderstanding, fear, and outright hate. imagine it this way. men love watching porn. men even like softcore skinemax crap. they'll even go to a regular movie cause there might be some sex in it. oh god and if there's two chicks... but how many guys have you known in the last month volunteer to go see brokeback mountain without batting an eye. they're just two people who love each other. they're not special, they're not different, they're not weird or gross or crazy. they're just people. and they just want to not be different or weird or gross or crazy. or killed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-09-2006 9:45 PM GoodIntentions has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 195 (277650)
01-09-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
01-09-2006 10:43 AM


Don't play gang up on riverrat now.
Ok, I know I have been involved in a few threads about gays before.
I can see from the replys here that all of you do not understand my position on it in the least, even though I have expressed myself till I was blue in the face.
I find all of you just as guilty as me in that you have labeled me, and decided to treat me based on that label. So whos better than who here?
No one thats who. Thats what I hvae been saying since day one, since before I was a Christian, and my whole life. I see all people as equal, and having purpose in this life.
Beberry, this is not a reply to you only, but to all of you. Most of what I just said doesn't even apply to you, as I respect you.
The reason I made this thread, is because if there is one thing I cannot stand is a hypocrite. Most right wing fundies are hypocrites, and I find it sucks that they believe in the same God as me. I get so pissed that these people are "spokesmen" for Christ views, when it is clearly not.
If right wing fundies are hypocrites, they should be called out on it, just like gay liberals who want to abolish religion from our culture, and read the constitution wrong.
I will say this once more. I lie in the middle. I am open minded.
And now some answers to some of your direct questions and comments.
I've been following your debate with arachnophilia on this topic
Again beberry, I have to say that I greatly respect you, and your opinion, the way you talk and express yourself is wonderful. I like you. But I don't know how you can say you are following our debate and then claim these following things about me:
"You will not give us the consideration that perhaps there really isn't anything wrong with us."
I never said there was, in contrary, I said the opposite, I said there is some thing wrong with all of us, I will take the lead in that respect.
"I want to enjoy the exact same rights and priviliges you enjoy under the law; not in your church, but only under the law."
Do you realize that the Canadian government is trying to pass a law, that will take away churches tax free status if they do not agree to marry gays in the church? I've said it a thousand times already, it is my own personal views, and not my religious views.
"That's all I want, rat. Equal treatment under the law. Why is that so difficult?"
Very simply, it is not equal, if were equal then the involved partys would be of opposite sex. There is a clear and distinctive difference. This view can be for your benefit, but you will never see that. I've expressed myself in great detail about this thought. I am doing the best I can.
"I used to take you for a pig-headed fundie bigot,"
You have labeled me, and treated me as such, but you being as nice as you are, have not been harsh with me at all.
You have called me, and labeledme a bigot, you and a few others in here. I hate that word, I really do, and I do not want to be considered a bigot. So I am search myself deeply to see if I really am a bigot.
Wikipedia says: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.
I am not intolerant.
Wikipedia also says: Bigot is often used as pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged or proven to be false, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner
It has not been proven to be wrong, at least not to me yet. I am also tolerant, I have started a few threads already to give people a chance to change my mind. Maybe to you or others, but that is maybe because you yourself are a bigot in reverse to me, and my beliefs. Which btw, I am not talking about religous beliefs.
So I am not a bigot.
Perhaps you're still a bit of a bigot, but you seem to be open to that notion and as far as I'm concerned we're all bigots of one type or another.
Thank you so much for that comment, that is why I respect you greatly.
I look at myself in the same mannor.
What threat would my marriage to the person I love pose to you or to your children?
The truth is, I don't know. I see how it has affected certain areas in NYC, and I would not bring my children into those areas. Its Gays gone Wild down there, and it sucks. They are not making a good impression on me, that is for sure.
Having said all that from a non-religious view, I will add this about my religious view of it. You say:
You're convinced that what we do sexually is a sin, and that there is no way that sex between gays can be performed sinlessly. Therefore, to you, it must seem that there is no need for gay marriage, since it would simply validate what you see as sinful and thus lead people away from Christ.
1. I am not convinced what you do sexually is a sin, the bible says it is though. You can twist it whatever way you want.
2. I do not know if it would lead people away from Christ or not. It just might bring people to Christ in some weird way, who knows.
Listen, the bible says judge people, and you too will be judged in the same way.
I am not judging gays, I don't even really know if it is wrong or not. The bible sure says it is a sin, and for myself, I feel if I was gay, I would be sinning. Yes, seeing 2 woman together is so dam sexy, as long as they don't look like men, but when I see it, I still feel like there is something wrong. I am not ashamed of my sinful desires. I cannot change who I am, or pretend to be someone I am not.
Yes 2 guys kissing or having sex, grosses me out, as did all the gays who made advances on me.
The 2 lesbians who lived right next door to me for 9 years, and were my best friends parents, where I spent many nights over there, had a very apparent hatred towards men, and it manifested itself in my friend, and he was screwd up from it. Is this any different from a straight marraige?
He was loved by them, he was treated well, and he was screwd up. We all accepted him, and his parents. Never said a word about it.
I am rambling, because I have so much to say, and it seems every time I open my mouth on this subject, I will be attacked. There will be many replys to these comments, and I bet some won't be pretty.
But my point is that I fear God now, and if I was sinning, I would want someone to care enough to speak the truth in love and try to stop me from doing it.
I fear God because my faith goes beyond just faith, I feel something now. Before that it was just faith, and I was a different person.
So to me, I ask myself, is it possible that God could get mad at this nation for all this crap that is going on? That is not limited to gays, but fundies as well.
I don't know the answers, but I am just as mad at right wing conservatives for sinning, as I am at gays. Let me correct myself, I am not mad at the person, but I am mad at the sin.
Maybe I am just quacking up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by berberry, posted 01-09-2006 10:43 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by berberry, posted 01-10-2006 4:18 AM riVeRraT has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 13 of 195 (277651)
01-09-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by GoodIntentions
01-09-2006 5:56 PM


hacked
Although I don't spend that much time here, I could have sworn that you have at least once or twice identified yourself as both a fundy and a gay marriage opponent. Have you changed your mind or have you been hacked?
No, someone hacked your brain into thinking I claimed to be a fundie, and gay marraige is not a word to me. Saying I am against gay marraige, is like saying I am against aliens. Does this help you to understand how I feel about it?
There are people who hate God, and there are people who just don't believe in it.
I find the hatred from both sides (liberal/conservative/whatever) replusive. It just plain sucks.
Go ahead, hate me now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-09-2006 5:56 PM GoodIntentions has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2006 11:52 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 23 by GoodIntentions, posted 01-10-2006 3:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 195 (277660)
01-09-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 11:11 PM


Re: hacked
Saying I am against gay marraige, is like saying I am against aliens.
You mean, you're saying that "gay marriage" is a complete unknown whose characteristics you're unable to imagine, and therefore cannot formulate a response to?
Why would you come to that conclusion? Not only can gay couples marry in almost every civilized country, but even in this country, gay couples are forming households with children in exactly the way that heterosexual couples marry and do.
When two men or two women are married, what do you think changes? Inheritance of property goes the same way, sponsorship of citizenship goes the same way, custodial obligations to children go the same way.
Everything goes the same way except for how many penises and vaginas and breasts show up when you invite them out to couples tennis. And what on Earth does that matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 11:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 195 (277690)
01-10-2006 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by riVeRraT
01-09-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Don't play gang up on riverrat now.
riVeRraT writes me:
quote:
Again beberry, I have to say that I greatly respect you, and your opinion, the way you talk and express yourself is wonderful. I like you. But I don't know how you can say you are following our debate and then claim these following things about me:
"You will not give us the consideration that perhaps there really isn't anything wrong with us."
But you won't, rat. I know you're trying and that's why I like you, but you're not there yet. If you didn't feel that there was something wrong with gays then you wouldn't oppose our right to marry nor would you worry whether your children are exposed to us.
Let's take a look at that issue for a moment. You say:
quote:
I see how it has affected certain areas in NYC, and I would not bring my children into those areas. Its Gays gone Wild down there, and it sucks.
I can understand that. But I see you making a mistake here in equating what you see in "those areas" with homosexuality in general. Those "Gays Gone Wild" areas of town are a lot like the "Straights Gone Wild" areas of town, aren't they? I'm not as familiar with New York, but even in little ole Jackson, Mississippi we have what is usually called a red-light district. I wouldn't characterize all straight people by what I see in that area of town, and I don't think it's fair for you to characterize us gays by what you see in the "Gays Gone Wild" areas.
One important thing to remember, rat, is that those of us who grow up gay get the unmistakable message that we are not fully a part of things. No matter how fair-minded and law-abiding we might be, we won't be allowed to marry and we won't be a part of the mainstream. Given those facts, why should I want to be a law-abiding citizen and conform to the rules of straight society? If I'm a societal reject no matter what I do, why should I even try to fit in?
And no, we don't have the same marital rights. You have the right to marry for love but I don't. If I wanted to marry, it would have to be to a woman and therefore to someone I don't love in that certain way that makes marriages work. Besides, this "we all have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex" logic worked just as well back when the question was miscegenation. Everyone had the same right to marry someone of their own race.
quote:
Do you realize that the Canadian government is trying to pass a law, that will take away churches tax free status if they do not agree to marry gays in the church?
If it's Canada then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about it, but if such a law were proposed here I would be every bit as opposed to it as I am opposed to these cruel, inhuman, anti-gay constitutional amendments. The state has no right to tell the church what to do, just as the church has no right to tell the state what to do.
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Very simply, it is not equal, if were equal then the involved partys would be of opposite sex.
Again, the logic applies just as well to miscegenation. If such marriages were equal to traditional marriages, they wouldn't involve people of different races.
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You have called me, and labeledme a bigot, you and a few others in here. I hate that word, I really do, and I do not want to be considered a bigot. So I am search myself deeply to see if I really am a bigot.
Yes, and I meant it too. There was a time when I meant it as a condemnation but that's no longer true. I've come to know you better and I trust your motives a bit more than I did. I still think you're wrong, of course, but it's clear you're making an effort to be more open-minded. I appreciate that, and since I believe you're trying so hard not to be a bigot I'll quit calling you one.
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I am not convinced what you do sexually is a sin, the bible says it is though.
Anyone who doesn't think you're trying, rat, should pause for a moment over that quote. You really are trying and I love you for it. You deserve credit for keeping your mind open. A couple years ago I never would have thought it possible that you might say something like that.
And I have to say, the bible might just be right. I've read those passages, and it sounds to me like the references are to prostitution, not just gay sex. Temple prostitution was a problem in Paul's day, you know. So maybe the bible was right to condemn it, but maybe you're wrong to misread it as applying to all gay sex.
The only thing I can ask of you now is that you continue to try to see things from my perspective. Perhaps it might help if I explain part of the reason why I'm so passionate about this issue. I don't know if I've ever brought this up before, but reading the short story Brokeback Mountain has had me thinking about it more lately.
Back in the 80s I had a boyfriend that I now realize was probably the love of my life. He was good-looking, athletic and very, very passionate - in private. He couldn't deal with the idea of anyone finding out what was going on between us. He couldn't deal with the idea of everyone knowing he was gay. People had us figured out, of course, but it wasn't until about the fifth year we were together that he started to realize that people knew. He couldn't handle it. He wanted me to move with him to another city, but I wouldn't do it because I felt that once we did that, it would only be a matter of time before we'd have to move again. I insisted that we stay here. He left. Eventually, he got married - to a woman, of course - had kids and now lives in a closet. I kept seeing him from time to time for a few years, but eventually I stopped because I don't like sharing a mate with someone. I still hear from him about once a year, usually at around Christmas. It's obvious he isn't happy, but he's got himself locked into a situation he can't get out of now.
If gays were a part of mainstream society we might very well still be together, probably married. I'm sure he'd be happier than he is and I know I would be. That poor woman he married may yet have no idea what her husband does when she's not looking, but one day he's going to get caught and she and the kids are going to suffer needlessly.
Why can't we just get this whole marriage thing out of the way and let people be whatever they are in order to find happiness? I shouldn't have to live a lie, not to mention ruin the life of an unsuspecting woman, in order to enjoy the comfort and security that comes from marriage. Why can't I have marriage on my own terms so long as I don't interfere in someone else's life? What's the danger?
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...it seems every time I open my mouth on this subject, I will be attacked.
Not from me, not any more. I might very well get angry with you, but I won't attack. If anything I say sounds like an attack, please point it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2006 11:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2006 7:22 AM berberry has replied

  
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