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Author Topic:   Is there a conspiracy?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 1 of 38 (184223)
02-09-2005 7:55 PM


Last month a retired professor - a protein researcher - was found murdered in a parking garage not all that far from where I live.
He was stabbed in the chest multiple times, stuffed in the trunk of his Honda, which was then set on fire. This is not a common way for people to die in Columbia, so naturally it caused some interest in the community.
But it turns out that well over 40 microbiologists, immunologists, and protein researchers have been killed in the past few years, most in very alarming circumstances. A webpage details them:
www.stevequayle.com
Now, this is also the same webpage that details how giants are going to come back from the mists of legend, with dire consequences for us all, so I'm not too interested in his conclusions. But something is going on. Folks just aren't stabbed and immolated on a regular basis in a college town where people don't even lock their car doors, especially not research biochemists.
But I was curious to know what others might be able to dig up. Is this a statistically significant trend, or just cherry-picking data?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by coffee_addict, posted 02-10-2005 11:23 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 3 by Trae, posted 02-13-2005 3:20 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-13-2005 6:59 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2005 7:28 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 2 of 38 (184406)
02-10-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
02-09-2005 7:55 PM


Whatever it is, I blame it on Bush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 02-09-2005 7:55 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 3 of 38 (184803)
02-13-2005 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
02-09-2005 7:55 PM


Well just glancing at the site, it seems mostly to be garbage.
With so many scientists there are bound to be tragedies. Other than using the site as a point to start gathering information, it would seem to be questionable.
Even the case you cited, which I assume you had some details from another source, seems questionable to me. Notice he says the person was retired?
#21: Roman Kuzmin 24-year-old Russian surgeon studying in Connecticut was fatally struck by a car as he fled a store with three stolen rolls of film, police said. He was studying to be an orthopedic surgeon.
How does one even fit that into a hypothosis? I suppose if one believes that the government has directional mind-control. They forced him to steal then run into a car?
If you like this sort of thing, not saying you believe in it, have you read Michael Crichton’s State of Fear? I think this would be the perfect sort of thing to run at the beginning of a film version of the book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 02-09-2005 7:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2005 11:22 AM Trae has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 38 (184814)
02-13-2005 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
02-09-2005 7:55 PM


Columbia, Missouri needs Columbo!
crashfrog writes:
This is not a common way for people to die in Columbia, so naturally it caused some interest in the community.
But it turns out that well over 40 microbiologists, immunologists, and protein researchers have been killed in the past few years, most in very alarming circumstances.
I saw the webpage. Did someone tell you of it? I would be more curious if more than one source suggested conspiracy. It may be plausible, though and I agree with Jacen in that the current administration would be tied up in it somehow. Why would someone kill the people who have the answers?
Is Dr. Evil afraid of a little competition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 02-09-2005 7:55 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 38 (184865)
02-13-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trae
02-13-2005 3:20 AM


With so many scientists there are bound to be tragedies.
Yes, which is what I was hoping someone could analyze. What are the odds that this is simply a random distribution of tragedy?
Even the case you cited, which I assume you had some details from another source, seems questionable to me. Notice he says the person was retired?
We was a retired professor, but I believe that he was an active researcher. But even were he not, maybe he was simply targeted because of what he knew, or his expertise. Maybe the conspiracy is to eliminate the best minds in micobiology, leaving us unprepared for a massive attack by some bioengineered plague. I don't know.
Cars don't just start on fire when you drop a match on the upholstery. If Im was burned in his car then there must have been an accelerant, which means the killer planned ahead, which means Im was assassinated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Trae, posted 02-13-2005 3:20 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Trae, posted 02-19-2005 12:25 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 6 of 38 (186667)
02-19-2005 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
02-13-2005 11:22 AM


Just yesterday or the day before a local man threw a lit cigarette out of his vehicle on the SF Bay Bridge (it might have been the Golden Gate, but I don’t think so). The cigarette blew back into the vehicle started a fire. The report said that the car burnt down to the frame.
One would hope that modern upholstery would be less flammable.
[edit]
I would really be surprised if one couldn't make a similar webpage with odd deaths of teachers, dentists, or dog-owners.
What I would like to see at the very least would be the police and corner reports. It is troublesome that all these reports seem to have no follow-through.
This message has been edited by Trae, 02-18-2005 21:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2005 11:22 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 02-19-2005 12:30 PM Trae has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 38 (186767)
02-19-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trae
02-19-2005 12:25 AM


I would really be surprised if one couldn't make a similar webpage with odd deaths of teachers, dentists, or dog-owners.
That's what I was hoping someone could do; perform a statistical analysis that compared the odds of dying in these ways with the odds of being a research microbiologist, protein chemist, or epidemiologist. Or just give me an indication that random chance is more likely an explanation than the targeted elimination of scientists.
This is a town where people don't lock their car doors in some places. The fact that a research chemist in a good part of town was stabbed to death and immolated can't, to my mind, be explained as simple bad luck.
What I would like to see at the very least would be the police and corner reports.
In regards to the local murder, all I really have to do on are the leaflets the police have been handing out; it says that eyewitnesses saw a man leave the scene in a hoodie and a painter's mask, possibly carrying a large container, like a gas can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Trae, posted 02-19-2005 12:25 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 8 of 38 (187125)
02-21-2005 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
02-19-2005 12:30 PM


It can however be explained in so many other ways. Maybe someone wanted his savings and/or insurance money and hired someone to bump them off.
I just don't think you can do any statistical analysis with this sort of thing. Garbage in, garbage out. There are just too many details that haven't been provided. What was the accelerant? Why was he there. Was it part of his regular schedule? What do the police suspect were the motives, etc?
Has anything like this happened elsewhere in this area, etc?

This message is a reply to:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 38 (187151)
02-21-2005 7:19 AM


Hmm, people dying of strange headaches in Lesotho tends to catch my eye.
As an aside, as a Red Pepper article once argued, the rejection of any and all conspiracy theories serves as an excellent cover under which to conduct a conspiracy, no?
In the closing years of the SA apartheid regime, Project Coast under Dr Wouter Basson carried out a great deal of chemical/biological weapons research, rumoured to have included modification of human bacterial fauna. Where these materials, or their processes, ended up is unkown, although it is known that Basson had some contacts with the US intelligence establishment.
So it is possible that some of these matewrials and research are still in circulation in certain circles, and they would be something of a hot potatoe if they were. As we know, chemwar is far more attractive to asymetric forces than nuclear weaponry.
The headache reminds me of a case in which someone was killed by poisoned underpants in the 80's IIRC.
West Nile virus is also interesting as the US is accused of using it against Cuba in the 80's in covert chemical warfare.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 10 of 38 (187152)
02-21-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
02-09-2005 7:55 PM


Some years ago there was a rash of sudden deaths in the UK Defence industry, including, IIRC, at least 2 rather bizarre suicides.
Since it struck a little close to home I kept an eye out. (While I didn't know any of the people and I was no longer working in Defence one of the dead HAD worked on a project I had also been involved with).
But the run stopped, no hard evidence was ever produced to suggest that there was any link and it seems to have been all a coincidence.
Now these deaths actually made the mainstream press. The list you linked to reminds me more of the list of deaths supposedly linked with President Clinton. I suspect there will be a similar lack of substance when the details are examined.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 38 (190801)
03-09-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
02-21-2005 7:28 AM


But wouldn't there always be a lack of substance? If its a government scandal, I mean.
Government commits scandal
Government conducts investigation of scandal
Government determines it was indeed a scandal and apologizes for and corrects unethical behaviours
Haw!
I thought it was curious about 9-11. Many folks think 9-11 was a US government conspiracy committed for, among other things, to further strip the Constitution (Patriot Act) and to provide a reason to start two strange wars. But when I tell this to others, they say...oh no the 9-11 commission demonstrated there was no conspiracy...oh well I guess it wasn't then.
Or here in my home state, we had a scandal. A very influential man who was senator (state legislature) for 20 years quit running for senator and ran for a county commissioner seat (my county). He was elected...I mean what couldn't he do for our county? Not too far into his term there's suddenly horrible soap-opera disagreements in commissioner meetings (which are mandatorily public). Then there's a scandal...it involved bribes and a tremendous real estate deal. Mr. Big Shot's friend is a realtor who wants to sell this expensive but useless piece of property. Who better to buy it than our county? Need a majority of the commissioners to vote for the deal. Mr. Big Shot buys the votes (bribes). The county buys the land; money changes hands. The newspaper DOES find this out. It hits the fan. One of the bribe-ees turns state witness against Mr. Big Shot.
After its almost all over, the bribe-ee "commits suicide." Hey, maybe he did...I don't know, but one of the bribe-ees friends was worried that maybe he was actually killed and calls up the local police and asks for requests that there be no cover-ups in the investigation of his death. The police chief assures him there will be no cover-ups. (honest...the newspaper quoted this guy saying this). I laugh whenever I think about it. I'm not saying there WAS a cover-up, but IF the police chief were planning a cover-up, is he going to say, "Oh I'm sorry, sir, we've got to do a cover-up on this one, unfortunately."
There certainly was a good explanation for the man's death. He drank radiator fluid. It definitely was suicide. There definitely was no foul play. The police reports assure us. The newspaper and TV informed us.
Somehow Mr. Big Shot doesn't even go to jail IIRC.
If there was no cover up...that's the way it'd be. But then, if there was a cover-up, that's the way it'd be, too. That's the trouble with cover-ups.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2005 7:28 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 38 (190802)
03-09-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
02-19-2005 12:30 PM


CF,
I can't do the statistical analysis (not by a long-shot), but perhaps, if these fellows/fellowettes work in fields that do require they know "sensitive" knowledge, the odds of them dying might be higher. Though it might not be a single conspiracy...maybe just a bunch of little ones. You've got sensitive info...you're more likely to be the target of narfarious conspiratorial types...<*shrugs shoulders*>

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 38 (190806)
03-09-2005 4:17 PM


If anybody wants to get some numbers started, I would go to American Society for Microbiology. It is the homepage for the American Society of Microbiologists, by far the largest organization of microbiologists. They have a Member Search and claim to have 42,000 current members. I have been to the ASM General Meeting and the 42,000 number isn't far off judging by the turnout. I think comparing the normal occurence of unnatural death with a membership of 42,000 could yield some sort of answer.
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 03-09-2005 16:17 AM

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 14 of 38 (190818)
03-09-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by TheLiteralist
03-09-2005 3:08 PM


In this particular case there was no clear link between the dead individuals, and the run of deaths stopped. A statistical quirk is by far the most likely explanation.
And the only thing more surprising than the idea thatt the U.S. government would be ruthless to plan 9-11 is the idea that they would be competent enough to succeed and get away with it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 38 (190886)
03-10-2005 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
03-09-2005 6:04 PM


quote:
In this particular case there was no clear link between the dead individuals, and the run of deaths stopped. A statistical quirk is by far the most likely explanation.
No, thats an unwarranted assumption - theres no APPARENT link but that does not definitely mean there was no link. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
quote:
And the only thing more surprising than the idea thatt the U.S. government would be ruthless to plan 9-11 is the idea that they would be competent enough to succeed and get away with it.
That elides the fact that if there was such a conspiracy, it would not have been conducted by the government en bloc, but by a subset of the government. A specific task group or department cannot be assumed to suffer from the same kind of porblems that permeate very large institutions.
That said, I think the idea that the Us government, out of the blue, decided to become more authoritarian and conpired to construct a suitable pretext is not very cinvincing IMO. It still seems more likely to me that 9/11 was exactly what it appeared to be and that things like the patriot act should be seen a hysterical response rather than malice aforethought.

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