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Author Topic:   wheat grass... any science to this fad?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5809 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 101 (297549)
03-23-2006 10:23 AM


My gf has recently begun trying wheat grass as way to maintain health. She gets it in a drink form from one of the "health food" or "health juice" stores which have popped up here and there.
Given the cost we decided that it might be of interest to find out if it is doing anything for real. The claims we have heard or read is that a shot glass of wg is equal to 1kg of vegetables, in addition to vitamins, it helps cleans the body of toxins, etc etc. One unusual claim was that it contains a lot of clorophyll and since that is so close to hemoglobin it helps the body replenish red blood cells easier.
Just wondering if anyone has scientific or serious anecdotal info about this stuff.

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 724 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2 of 101 (297564)
03-23-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-23-2006 10:23 AM


One unusual claim was that it contains a lot of clorophyll and since that is so close to hemoglobin it helps the body replenish red blood cells easier
ROFL! Chlorophyll is sort of a closeish cousin to heme - both are porphyrins, which are small molecules. Hemoglobin is a largish protein that is bound to four heme molecules. Chlorophyll carries magnesium, and heme iron. I'd say that "unusual" is a charitable word to use for that claim.....and unless the drink is opaque dark green it doesn't have enough chlorophyll in it to notice, anyway.
And every time I hear "rids the body of toxins" I hear ducks talking their native tongue.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 101 (297566)
03-23-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-23-2006 10:23 AM


Holmes
One unusual claim was that it contains a lot of clorophyll and since that is so close to hemoglobin it helps the body replenish red blood cells easier.
That might be of great benefit if your gf is a plant.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5809 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 101 (297590)
03-23-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
03-23-2006 11:35 AM


I'd say that "unusual" is a charitable word to use for that claim...
I was trying to be as neutral as possible. I don't how the body goes about assembling red blood cells and for all I know having "chunks" that are similar, might help... even if it seems doubtful.
unless the drink is opaque dark green it doesn't have enough chlorophyll in it to notice, anyway.
She says it is opaque dark green. They clip the grass right there and shred/pulp/squeeze it into a shot glass. Totally dark green. It is possible to get that same amount of material mixed with other juices and so be less green.
Lets say it has lots of chlorophyll, would that help the body make heme?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 5 of 101 (297604)
03-23-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-23-2006 10:23 AM


i really can't imagine it being magical at all. it's grass. grass has lots of fiber. animals chew it when they get constipated. so yes. it could help rid you of toxins but no more than a fiber pill. if you want to do a flush, take fiber and drink tea. caffiene free but still a diuretic. yes it could be beneficial. is it going to help you grow more hemoglobin? i really can't imagine it.
ok just did a google search (wheatgrass hemoglobin). 8 pages in and the only thing i found that wasn't a health food guru new age something site was a blog called skeptico and one on anemia from medhelp.org and one from the american cancer society. let's see what i found.
cancertutor.com claims that wheatgrass will cure cancer. i'm sure the pharmaceutical lobbyists have just kept this on the dl.
Wheatgrass Treatment For Cancer - Alternative Cancer Treatments
If we look at oxygen as a bullet to kill cancer cells, then we should look at wheatgrass as a shotgun blast at treating cancer. The number of ways it deals with cancer is incredible. First of all it contains chlorophyll, which has almost the same molecular structure as hemoglobin. Chlorophyll increases hemoglobin production, meaning more oxygen gets to the cancer. Selenium and laetrile are also in wheatgrass, both are anticancer. Chlorophyll and selenium also help build the immunity system. Furthermore, wheatgrass is one of the most alkaline foods known to mankind. And the list goes on.
yeah. boy if i'd known that 14 years ago, i'd have send my dad out to graze.
some apparently local newspaper had an article
Moorpark Acorn | Moorpark, CA News
Just what are these ”anti-oxidants’ we hear so much about these days - such as Superoxide Dismutase? During normal metabolism (i.e. activity of the cells) our body produces waste products with active atoms attached - looking for something to combine with.
These degenerative changes include: cell mutations - which can lead to cancer; Parkinson’s disease, and; aging processes - such as the dreaded wrinkles!
P4D1
This is a ”gluco-protein’ present in wheat grass, which has three main properties:
It appears to act in a way similar to anti-oxidants as far as cell mutations are concerned. It stimulates the renewal of RNA and DNA - the creative matter of the body. This means that cell deterioration and mutation will be slowed down or avoided. Therefore, there will probably be benefits from using wheat grass to avoid - or even during - degenerative diseases.
It appears to reduce inflammation - some say in a more powerful way than cortisone (and without the side-effects, of course). Some remarkable cures have been observed with wheat grass for people with inflammatory conditions such as arthritis.
i'll buy that. sure. wheatgrass has a superoxide dismutase mimic. i doubt it cures arthritis, but it probably couldn't hurt.
MUCO-POLYSACCHARIDES
These are a combination of complex and simple sugars which appear to stimulate the body’s repair mechanisms. Enhancing these mechanisms is important, because the body is constantly repairing and replacing damaged cells. If you can do this better, it means you will ”age’ better.
sure.
CHLOROPHYLL
Chemically, chlorophyll is almost identical to hemoglobin - the substance which transports oxygen from the Lungs to the tissues of the body. Out of about 50 atoms in the compound, only two are different. The main difference is that at the centre of chlorophyll there is a magnesium ion; whereas hemoglobin has iron in the same place.
The action of chlorophyll is so important, that two Nobel prizes were awarded for research on the compound.
Chlorophyll’s health properties were observed as early as 1950, when Offen Krantz reported the healing of long standing peptic ulcers after the application of chlorophyll.
The benefits of chlorophyll fall into three main categories, purifying, anti-inflammatory, and nourishing.
really? chemically identical?
i gotta check this.
chlorophyll

heme (i think four of these make a hemoglobule with some other stuff.)
ok so they're both kinda squarish and they have four nitrogens but that's about it. and chlorophyll isn't even a protein which should be the first thing that sounds the bullshit alarm.
that skeptico blog had some sources
Wheatgrass madness - Skeptico
But according to the DeKalb Medical Centerthere was a link here that doesn't work. but here's the hospital site http://www.dekalbmedicalcenter.org/)
Only cud-chewing animals with multiple stomachs can properly digest grass to absorb its nutrients. Even though we can decide to liquefy wheatgrass into a juice we still can not benefit from it.
i don't have four stomachs. does your gf spend an inordinate amount of time with ungulates?
straight quote from the blog:
. enzymes wheatgrass juice delivers. Enzymes are complex protein compounds produced by living cells that speed up biochemical reactions required for proper and normal functioning of every organ system and have also been found to aid digestion!
Enzymes have been found to aid digestion? Well, of course they have - but not the enzymes in stuff you eat! From the National Council Against Health Fraud:
Enzymes are complex protein molecules produced by living organisms exclusively for their own use in promoting chemical reactions. Orally ingested enzymes are digested in the stomach and have no enzymatic activity in the eater.
The plant produces enzymes to help it (the plant) digest the nutrients it needs. The human body produces enzymes to help it (the human body) digest the nutrients it needs. But they are not the same enzymes - they’re different molecules! Plant enzymes in stuff you eat do not aid your digestion.
heh. more please
wheatgrass proponent Piter U. Caizer, known as the "wheat grass messiah," argues that there is literally an energy, a life force eastern healers call "chi," present in fresh-squeezed wheatgrass
Of course! It’s the “chi”. It contains something no scientific instrument has even been able to detect. Wow! How do they know? I’m convinced.
Anyway, I found one thing that Jamba Juice and the National Council Against Health Fraud do agree on. First (all emphasis mine) the National Council Against Health Fraud
. it is conceivable that enzymes present in rectally-administered wheatgrass juice could have chemical activity
And Jamba Juice:
For the more dedicated enthusiast, wheat grass can be taken as an enema!
alright then. you know the mayans used to take their alcohol and hallucinogens up the ass. it doesn't make you sick that way.
there's a wiki on it. i didn't bother to read.
Interesting Wheatgrass Information (wheat grass juice information)
this site had bannanas and a dancing gif of a guy who looks naked. trust that one.
remember the american cancer society site?
American Cancer Society | Information and Resources about for Cancer: Breast, Colon, Lung, Prostate, Skin
What is the history behind it?
The wheatgrass diet was developed by Boston resident Ann Wigmore, who emigrated to the United States from Lithuania. Wigmore believed strongly in the healing power of nature. Wigmores notion that fresh wheatgrass had therapeutic value came from her interpretation of the Bible and observations that dogs and cats eat grass when they feel ill. Wigmore claimed that the wheatgrass diet could cure disease.
In 1982, the Massachusetts Attorney General sued Wigmore for claiming that her program could reduce or eliminate the need for insulin in diabetics. Afterward, she retracted her claims. In 1988, the Massachusetts Attorney General sued Wigmore again, this time for claiming that an "energy enzyme soup" she invented could cure AIDS. Wigmore was ordered to stop representing herself as a physician or person licensed to treat disease.
What is the evidence?
There is no scientific evidence to suggest that wheatgrass or the wheatgrass diet can cure or prevent disease, although one small early study found that, used along with standard medical care, wheatgrass juice seemed to help control symptoms of ulcerative colitis (chronically inflamed large intestine.) This 2002 study tested fresh wheatgrass juice against a sham drink in a group of people with ulcerative colitis. All of them received regular medical care, including the usual diet. Those who drank about 3 ounces of the juice every day for a month had less pain, diarrhea, and rectal bleeding than those in the control group.
Although there are anecdotal (individual) reports that describe tumor regression and extended survival among people with cancer who followed the wheatgrass diet, there are no scientific studies to support this claim. However, wheat grass is a natural source of vitamins and minerals. The American Cancer Societys nutrition guidelines recommend eating a balanced diet that includes 5 or more servings a day of vegetables and fruit, choosing whole grains over processed and refined foods and limiting red meats and animal fats. Choosing foods from a variety of fruits, vegetables and other plant sources such as nuts, seeds, whole grain cereals, and beans is healthier than consuming large amounts of one particular food.
Are there any possible problems or complications?
Wheatgrass is generally considered safe, although a few individuals have reported nausea, headaches, hives, or swelling in the throat within minutes of drinking its juice. Hives and swollen throat are often signs of a serious allergic reaction and should be handled as an emergency. Anyone having these kinds of symptoms after ingesting wheatgrass may have even more severe reactions to it later.
Because it is grown in soils or water and consumed raw, contamination with bacteria, molds, or other substances may be a concern. Women who are pregnant or breastfeeding should not use wheatgrass.
enough said.
if you don't believe in the bible...
oh yeah. that guy from the local news? he's a gym owner.
Stephen Allen is the owner and proprietor of House of Fitness. Stephen can be reached at (removed phone number. go to the site.).
that medhelp.org site was apparently a forum.
the opening post said
Drink red grape juice. Not the fancy white/peach/flavored - but just plain good old fashioned red grape juice. Grapes to our blood is like chlorophyll to plants.
From health food store get DRIED WHEATGRASS JUICE capsules. Sunny Green brand if available. Just make sure it's the juice and not JUST dried wheatgrass.
one of the replies said
In 1936, Dr. Arthur Patek reported the results of an interesting study. Fifteen patients with iron-deficiency anemia were fed different amounts of chlorophyll along with iron. It was already known that iron alone cures this condition, but Patek found that when chlorophyll and iron were given together, the number of red blood cells and the level of blood hemoglobin increased faster than with iron alone. No such results for this type of anemia were obtained with chlorophyll alone. My understanding of what wheatgrass MAY do is in a sense turbocharged the hemoglobin cells by increasing the amount of oxygen, this leads to quicker cell death. As the problem lies with the ability of your system to produce new cells the use of wheatgrass may have an initial benefit, but also may lead to faster hemoglobin cell death. This I would think would not be a good long term therapy outcome, unless one were in the last few weeks of riba therapy.
Keep in mind that only cud-chewing animals with multiple stomachs can properly digest grass to absorb its nutrients. Even though we can decide to liquefy wheatgrass into a juice we still can not benefit from it, as humans cant digest grass: you need multiple stomachs like a cow. Perhaps its the enzymes wheatgrass juice delivers. Enzymes are complex protein compounds produced by living cells that speed up biochemical reactions required for proper and normal functioning of every organ system and have also been found to aid digestion. Enzymes are complex protein molecules produced by living organisms exclusively for their own use in promoting chemical reactions. Orally ingested enzymes are digested in the stomach and have no enzymatic activity in the eater. Enzymes do not fulfill the biological criteria for living things, because they do not, consist of cellular units, possess reproductive ability, demonstrate irritability; carry on metabolism; or grow. Personally I object to cheating people for money. These forms of therapy may divert patients from more responsible care, create false hope that eventually leads to greater despair, expose patients to quacks and cranks who traditionally foster dependency relationships that permit further exploitation.
One could suggest also in the abstract that Dildos will cure Erectile Dysfunction. On the other hand, I can provide some evidence for some alt meds, as recently, a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine, who is an acquaintance of my house mate, brought her some Chinese tea and herbs to cure her cold. I can attest that this tea and these herbs worked miracles. Within two weeks, my house mates cold was gone and I managed to avoid the cold altogether. The miracle is that all we had to do was touch the boxes of tea and herbs. We didn't even have to open them, much less use them to release their magic healing powers. We put them in a cupboard, thinking they'd be useless, but boy did we get a surprise when we realized how effective they were.
wow. a real study. apoparently he quoted this post from someone and leter everyone got huffy. it sounded quoted to me anyways.
as i said. if you want to remove toxins, stop eating preservatives and drink tea. fiber will clean out your butt.
heh. bullshit should totally hire me.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 724 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 101 (297610)
03-23-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by macaroniandcheese
03-23-2006 2:32 PM


Orally ingested enzymes are digested in the stomach and have no enzymatic activity in the eater.
There's the paydirt right there. Lots of quackery gets hidden behind the fact that our bodies cannot, in general, take up whole enzymes or any other proteins.
Pure speculation: chlorophyll taken along with iron, like the 1936 study Brenna cites, might really do some good. My very strong hunch, based on chemistry, is that iron would displace magnesium and get tied up with the chlorophyll "framework." Once there, I can easily imagine that it would be more readily absorbed by the intestines. It doesn't say what form of iron the study used, but it is apparently true that not every dosage form is readily available to our digestive systems.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 101 (297614)
03-23-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-23-2006 10:23 AM


quote:
Given the cost we decided that it might be of interest to find out if it is doing anything for real. The claims we have heard or read is that a shot glass of wg is equal to 1kg of vegetables,
This can't be true, simply because different vegeatbles have varying amounts of a very wide variety of nutrients and minerals.
I'd like to know how it is equal to a kg of vegetables, you know?
From what I know about the digestive process of animals that eat grass, like horses, is that they have to spend around 20 hours of every day eating many pounds of grass to get enough nutrients to be healthy, not to mention that they have specialized organs to digest the some of the various kinds of fiber present in various kinds of grasses.
Grass, compared to other food sources, is actually very low in nutrients and calories.
quote:
in addition to vitamins,
But what vitamins? And how much?
None of the wheatgrass juice sites I visited gave much in the way of specifics.
quote:
it helps cleans the body of toxins, etc etc.
That's a warning bell for me.
The body does a very good job of cleansing itself of toxins; that's what your kidneys and liver are for.
All that happens when you "cleanse" or "purge" or take diuretics is that you pee a lot for a while.
Anyway, the thing that turns me off about wheatgrass juice is that is tastes pretty bad.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 8 of 101 (297616)
03-23-2006 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
03-23-2006 4:04 PM


precisely. you want uber concentrated vegetables... drink v8. it's like 2 servings per can. but grass which we don't eat and can't digest? maybe drink the superfood. that's supposed to be good. but grass? no.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 101 (297619)
03-23-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by macaroniandcheese
03-23-2006 4:19 PM


yeah.
I mean, grass isn't a vegetable.
The seeds of the grass is where all the nutrients are; the wheat berry in the case of wheatgrass.
Certain sprouts ARE quite nutritious, but they are legumes; alfalfa and mung bean sprouts come to mind.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 724 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 101 (297622)
03-23-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by macaroniandcheese
03-23-2006 4:19 PM


but grass which we don't eat and can't digest?
Well, it's the cellulose (and little chunks of silica) in grass that humans can't digest, and those components aren't likely to be in an extract. But I'll agree that a bit of clarity from the folks pushing this stuff as "nutritional" would be a Good Thing. What vitamins? What nutrients?
I'll bet that V-8 tastes a lot better, too. With or without vodka.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 101 (297623)
03-23-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by macaroniandcheese
03-23-2006 2:32 PM


you know the mayans used to take their alcohol and hallucinogens up the ass. it doesn't make you sick that way.
... you know, vodka burns going down enough as it is. I can't imagine the sensation of it burning going up. I mean I've heard where Mexican beer comes from, but is that really where it's supposed to go, too?

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5809 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 101 (297624)
03-23-2006 4:39 PM


thanks
Thanks everyone (esp bren) for debunking the wheatgrass thing. That'll save some money and not to mention save her from having to drink it (she says it tastes bad).
Brenna has hyped tea and fiber as being generally healthy, is there a good recommendable diet for someone looking to be eat for health.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know all the general recs, but I'm interested in specific foods (and number of foods) that some may have as part of their regular diet to stay healthy.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 101 (297628)
03-23-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by nator
03-23-2006 4:22 PM


I mean, grass isn't a vegetable.
You know, my wife says that, too. "You need to eat some vegetables." "I'm eating corn." "Corn is a grain, not a vegetable."
Well, hell, onions and garlic are bulbs. Potatoes and carrots are roots. Beans are seeds. I understand that my wife is trying to make a point about the nutritive value of grains, which, beyond fiber, carbohydrate, and fats, isn't enormous. But every plant food is strong in some areas and weak in others. Seems that it's better to stress diversity of diet rather than express vegetable bigotry. If it grows on a plant and you eat it, it's a vegetable, as opposed to a "meat." (So too if it's a fungus.) Another, better way to say it might be - if a vegetarian can eat it, it's a vegetable.
I guess what I'm saying is, I understand that corn and wheat and rice are grains, that beans are legumes (actually, pulses), ginger and potatoes are rhizomes, cucumber, squash, and zuccini are fruits, lettuce and spinach are leaves. But they're all vegetables in common reference, too. If suddenly some of the above aren't vegetables, what are vegetables?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 101 (297629)
03-23-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
03-23-2006 4:39 PM


Re: thanks
Yeah yeah yeah, I know all the general recs, but I'm interested in specific foods (and number of foods) that some may have as part of their regular diet to stay healthy.
Olive oil is good for your heart; tumeric extends life; garlic just plain can't be anything but good for you. Chili peppers are good for you, too. These aren't foods that I specifically consume so much as foods I try to use in my cooking whenever possible. (You can't fry in olive oil, though, so I'm open to suggestions for the healthiest and cleanest oil for such cooking. Right now I use pure vegetable oil.)

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 101 (297630)
03-23-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
03-23-2006 4:39 PM


Re: thanks
quote:
Yeah yeah yeah, I know all the general recs, but I'm interested in specific foods (and number of foods) that some may have as part of their regular diet to stay healthy.
Some foods (off the top of my head) that are particularly packed with nutrition or particularly healthful:
blueberries
sweet potatoes
kale
bok choy
salmon
raw almonds
olive oil
broccoli
bananas
quinoa
seaweed
eggs
As a general rule, eat a wide variety of foods, lots of vegetables and fruits, choose whole grains over refined most of the time, some lean protein (less than most people think, unless you are on a muscle-building exercise regimen), and take it easy on the refined sweeteners, processed/fake food, super fatty red meat and other saturated fats and hard liquor.
I never say never to any food. It's the proportion in the diet that is important.
Lots of water is also important.
My ob/gyn tells me to take a daily multivitamin (Fintstone's actually) now that I'm in my mid thirties, and I do, but I dunno.
I have a great diet compared to the average american, so I really don't know if it makes a big difference.

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