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Author Topic:   Global Futurism. A discussion of impending issues
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1 of 241 (443604)
12-26-2007 12:08 AM


I was watching a show on CNN called Planet In Peril which states, among other things, that by 2050, there will be 50% more people on earth than there now are and that the environmental impacts will be pronounced. They traveled to 13 countries and saw that species are disappearing at 1000 times the average. The show is obvious in its truthful reporting. The issues are complex.

In this topic, I want to examine this and other aspects of dealing with the future on Earth for humanity.

Our discussion can be quite broad.

  • what is the impact of religious fundamentalism on human awareness of the future on earth?

  • Is Global warming preventable? How will the relocation of coastal populations be able to be accomplished given the diminishing resources globally? Will humans be able to put aside our selfish and survivalist nature and cooperate, or will there be wars as a result of these massive changes?

  • Can humanity maintain the standards of living that we in the United States now take for granted?

  • What IF? What if there are other natural disasters...such as Yellowstone or a Pacific Coast Tsunami and/or Earthquake? Could we survive? If so, would it be worth it?
    Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by Taz, posted 12-26-2007 12:40 AM Phat has responded
     Message 4 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 6:13 AM Phat has responded
     Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2007 8:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 227 by Fosdick, posted 01-16-2008 1:09 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • Taz
    Member (Idle past 1400 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 2 of 241 (443611)
    12-26-2007 12:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-26-2007 12:08 AM


    Phat writes:

    They traveled to 13 countries and saw that species are disappearing at 1000 times the average.


    Totally irrelevant. We all know that the apocolypse is just right around the corner. Then, all those who believe in Christ will be taken to heaven during the rapture. Those who get left behind will live through 7 years of hell on Earth before final judgement day. Why worry about species going extinct if the end is near?

    what is the impact of religious fundamentalism on human awareness of the future on earth?

    What future? The end is near!

    Is Global warming preventable? How will the relocation of coastal populations be able to be accomplished given the diminishing resources globally? Will humans be able to put aside our selfish and survivalist nature and cooperate, or will there be wars as a result of these massive changes?

    None of that matter. The end is near!

    Can humanity maintain the standards of living that we in the United States now take for granted?

    Who cares. The end is near!

    What IF? What if there are other natural disasters...such as Yellowstone or a Pacific Coast Tsunami and/or Earthquake? Could we survive? If so, would it be worth it?

    Any/every natural disaster that will occur will be a sign of the nearing apocolypse. The end is near!


    Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 12:08 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 2:04 AM Taz has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12254
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 3 of 241 (443621)
    12-26-2007 2:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by Taz
    12-26-2007 12:40 AM


    Sarcasm unmasked
    Taz....... :rolleyes: Your humorous sarcasm quite amply demonstrates the actual way that a religious fundamentalist would think. However......
    It appears that the End is not near. All this time, we have been waiting on GOD and as it turns out, He is waiting on us! Perhaps we have not passed our mission on earth yet. Perhaps we as a planet need to find a way to get along.

    I am no longer an End times believer. The way I see it, everyone dies anyway....so dealing with our individual mortality (or collective) is irrelevant. We need to do the best that we can do on a daily basis. Even IF Jesus is coming back, I think that it is our duty to try and get along with everyone on the planet first.

    I am what many would call a "typical selfish (and spoiled) American". I am used to a certain standard of living, and I consider it my right to have this standard until the day that I die. In order to do my best with the life I have, however, I need to learn to humble myself and realize that the only alternative to global war is going to involve a lot of compromise.

    It is harder for those of us who grew up with a lot to have to learn to live with less, but apparently that is the only solution that will work.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by Taz, posted 12-26-2007 12:40 AM Taz has not yet responded

      
    Tal
    Member (Idle past 3786 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 4 of 241 (443625)
    12-26-2007 6:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-26-2007 12:08 AM


    To quote myself from the another thread, present day species extinction rates haven't been demonstrated. In the 1970s, Norman Meyers predicted a million species would be extinct by the year 2000. Paul Ehrlich predicted that fifty percent of all species would be extinct by the year 2000. But those were just opinions. --Discussion in Lomborg p. 252

    Opinion in the absence of evidence is prejudice. Do you know how many species are on the planet? No? Neither does anybody else. Estimates range from 3 million to 100 million. Quite a range.

    Morjorie L. Reaka-Kudia, et al., Biodiversity II, Understanding and Protecting our Biological Resources, Washington: National Academies Press, 1997. "Biologists have come to recognize just how little we know about the organisms with which we share the planet Earth. In particular, attempts to determine how many species there are in total have been surprisingly fruitless." Myers: "We have no way of knowing the actual extinction rate in the tropical forests, let alone an approximate guess." In Lomborg, p. 254

    So its pretty hard to determine how many species become extinct if you don't know how many there are in the first place. How could you tell if you were robbed if you didn't know how much money you had in your pocket to begin with? There is no known rate of species extinction.

    The show is obvious in its truthful reporting.

    Oh yes, obviously truthful. /sarcasm off

    there will be 50% more people on earth than there now

    This one I do believe because I can see historical data that indicates the population curve will hit around this mark.

    It is interesting to note that the world hit the 6 billion mark around 2000. We hit 5 billion around 1987, 4 billion around 1975, 3 billion around 1960, 2 billion around 1920, 1 billion about 1820, and at the year 0 (when Christ was born) there were about 200 million people on earth.

    Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

    And here's a graph:

    I love the way it happens to flatten out starting 6,000 years ago to "prehistoric" times.

    Is Global warming preventable?

    This statement is presuming that man made global warming is proven, which it has not been despite what Gore says. But that is another thread altogether.

    As a bible believing christian, I see the future happening just the way the bible says it will happen. During the Great Tribulation after the 3 and half years of peace between Israel and Antichrist, you'll have the 7 seals:

    1 - Rider on White Horse
    2 - War
    3 - Famine
    4 - Death

    Those are the so called 4 horseman of the apocalypse. These are pretty vague and it could be argued that they are happening now. The 5th Seal is the martyrs crying out for vengence. But at the 6th Seal it gets interesting.

    6 - Terror

    12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
    16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" --Revelations 6:12-17

    Global earthquake. Woot. This one should be pretty obvious when it happens.

    Next comes 4 angels that hold back ALL the wind on the earth.

    Then we kick off with the Trumpets:

    1 - Revelations 6:7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

    1/3 of the vegetation on earth burned up. I'm sure this would make news.

    2 - Revelations 6:8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood, 9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

    Alrighty. Something like a mountain in the sea...1/3 of sea creatures and 1/3 of all ships destroyed. That should make spectacular headlines as well.

    3 - Revelations 6:10The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters. 11The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

    1/3 of the drinking water turned bad.

    4 - Revelations 6:12The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for athird of it, and the night in the same way.

    1/3 of illumation gone. That won't make sun bathers happy.

    And now for one of my favorites, the 5th trumpet - Bottomless Pit

    1Then the (A)fifth angel sounded, and I saw a (B)star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the (C)key of the (D)bottomless pit was given to him.
    2He opened the bottomless pit, and (E)smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and (F)the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

    3Then out of the smoke came (G)locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the (H)scorpions of the earth have power.

    4They were told not to (I)hurt the (J)grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the (K)seal of God on their foreheads.

    5And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for (L)five months; and their torment was like the torment of a (M)scorpion when it stings a man.

    6And in those days (N)men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

    7The (O)appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

    8They had hair like the hair of women, and their (P)teeth were like the teeth of lions.

    9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the (Q)sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

    10They have tails like (R)scorpions, and stings; and in their (S)tails is their power to hurt men for (T)five months.

    11They have as king over them, the angel of the (U)abyss; his name in (V)Hebrew is [a](W)Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

    Huge, armored, flying, banshee looking things with scorpion tails that will only strike at men (but not christains), causing pain for 5 months.

    Trumpet 6, Army from the East. The 4 angels from the river Euphrates will kill 1/3 of men. So if there are 6 billion people alive at this time, there will be 2 billion killed. I'm sure that might make the morning news. There's a nice description of them if you'd like to read, but being spiritual beings I don't think you'll be able to see them anyway.

    Trumpet 7 is Christ's reign forseen. Not much to do with the nightly news as far as I can tell.

    Then we come to the bowls:

    Bowl 1 - Boils upon those with the mark of the beast
    Bowl 2 - Sea becomes blood, everything in the sea dies
    Bowl 3 - Rivers and Springs become blood
    Bowl 4 - Sun scorches men.
    Bowl 5 - Pain
    Bowl 6 - Euphrates River dries up
    Bowl 7 - Greatest Earthquake of all time, causing all islands and mountains to disappear.

    Now you might be able to rationalize the 4 horsemen as already being here. You could even chalk up some of the trumpets to global warming if you still wanted to have blinders. But after that it is going to be apparent that God is giving you what you've always wanted: signs that He is God.

    All this stuff will happen so that you can see that this is the coming of the final battle between God and Satan. At some point it will become obvious and you will have to chose a side. You can call me crazy for believing in all of this and that is fine. But in the end, Christ will come back and set up His 1,000 year reign. The earth will be restored to the way it was in the garden of Eden. The earth is presently in trouble. It is following the 2d law of thermodynamics, just as it always has been. It is correct that something must be done soon or humans won't be able to survive on the earth in the next few hundred years (EMF decay). It is pretty vain for us to think as humans that we can control a part of the environment, much less the whole thing. The earth is in trouble, but there's only one person who can do anything about it, and He will soon enough. But you should know that there is another fundamentalist view of the end of the world:

    President Ahmadinejad's (President of Iran) final comments in a speech at the UN General Assembly:

    "Dear Friends and Colleagues,
    "From the beginning of time, humanity has longed for the day when justice, peace, equality and compassion envelop the world. All of us can contribute to the establishment of such a world. When that day comes, the ultimate promise of all Divine religions will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being who is heir to all prophets and pious men. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace.

    "O mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace.

    Anyone want to guess who he is talking about? :)

    Edited by Tal, : Add some comments

    Edited by Tal, : No reason given.

    Edited by Tal, : grammer


    We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 12:08 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by nator, posted 12-26-2007 7:50 AM Tal has responded
     Message 7 by sidelined, posted 12-26-2007 8:13 AM Tal has responded
     Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 9:11 AM Tal has not yet responded
     Message 12 by Taz, posted 12-26-2007 11:15 AM Tal has not yet responded
     Message 16 by Michael, posted 12-26-2007 6:57 PM Tal has not yet responded

        
    nator
    Member (Idle past 278 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 5 of 241 (443632)
    12-26-2007 7:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
    12-26-2007 6:13 AM


    quote:
    Opinion in the absence of evidence is prejudice.

    So is ignoring what experts in the field think in favor of your own preferred, ignorant belief.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 6:13 AM Tal has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 8:09 AM nator has not yet responded

        
    Tal
    Member (Idle past 3786 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 6 of 241 (443634)
    12-26-2007 8:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by nator
    12-26-2007 7:50 AM


    Good come back. I cited references. Where are yours?


    We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by nator, posted 12-26-2007 7:50 AM nator has not yet responded

        
    sidelined
    Inactive Member


    Message 7 of 241 (443635)
    12-26-2007 8:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
    12-26-2007 6:13 AM


    Tal

    Those are the so called 4 horseman of the apocalypse. These are pretty vague and it could be argued that they are happening now.

    Well vagueness is what prophecies are good at.

    Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 6:13 AM Tal has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 8:41 AM sidelined has responded

      
    Tal
    Member (Idle past 3786 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 8 of 241 (443644)
    12-26-2007 8:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
    12-26-2007 8:13 AM


    Well yes, but the rest are going to be blatantly obvious. Huge, armored, flying, banshee looking horse things with scorpion tails won't be easy to miss or misinterpret.

    "Yep Fred, there goes those newly evolved flying horse stinger dudes. I think they mutated because of global warming."


    We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by sidelined, posted 12-26-2007 8:13 AM sidelined has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by sidelined, posted 12-26-2007 9:03 AM Tal has not yet responded

        
    sidelined
    Inactive Member


    Message 9 of 241 (443647)
    12-26-2007 9:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Tal
    12-26-2007 8:41 AM


    Tal

    Well yes, but the rest are going to be blatantly obvious. Huge, armored, flying, banshee looking horse things with scorpion tails won't be easy to miss or misinterpret.

    But that says nothing about the validity of the claim to prophecy.

    Perhaps you would be so good as to point out an item of warfare that is huge,armoured,flying,banshee looking{ever seen a banshee?} with scorpion tales{nasty} whose primary capability is to simply cause pain for 5 months?

    That sounds like weaponry developed by a liberal.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 8:41 AM Tal has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by bluescat48, posted 12-26-2007 11:55 AM sidelined has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12254
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 10 of 241 (443651)
    12-26-2007 9:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
    12-26-2007 6:13 AM


    Self Fullfilling Prophecies
    I realize that this is a coffee house and not a faith/belief thread per se, but I do feel that I need to address some of these issues.
    Tal writes:

    As a bible believing christian, I see the future happening just the way the bible says it will happen.

    OK....but how do you know that your interpretation of Revelation is the only possible way that Revelation can be interpreted?

    I say this, Tal...because ironically, the seeming solution needed for the problems that are found globally is cooperation among nations rather than conflict. I say ironically because of your veiled reference to the Antichrist.

  • Whose fault is it that 1/3 of the water becomes bitter? (Assuming that is foreseeable?

  • Whose fault is it that 1/3 of the vegetation gets trashed?

    Lets assume, for a moment, that world population does increase and that competition for resources becomes of global concern. You, being a soldier of the United States are forced to choose between national allegiance and surrender to God. Which will you choose?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 6:13 AM Tal has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by jar, posted 12-26-2007 9:16 AM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 11 of 241 (443652)
    12-26-2007 9:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
    12-26-2007 9:11 AM


    The real threat to humanity are End Time Believers
    The real threat to humanity are religious believers in End Time Prophecy whether they are Christian End Time believers or Muslim End Time believers.


    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 9:11 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 6:33 PM jar has responded

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1400 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 12 of 241 (443666)
    12-26-2007 11:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
    12-26-2007 6:13 AM


    Tal writes:

    Do you know how many species are on the planet? No? Neither does anybody else. Estimates range from 3 million to 100 million. Quite a range.


    Perhaps you could tell us how many species there are based on how many animal Noah could hold on his ark?


    Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tal, posted 12-26-2007 6:13 AM Tal has not yet responded

      
    bluescat48
    Member (Idle past 2298 days)
    Posts: 2347
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2007


    Message 13 of 241 (443676)
    12-26-2007 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by sidelined
    12-26-2007 9:03 AM


    Perhaps you would be so good as to point out an item of warfare that is huge,armoured,flying,banshee looking{ever seen a banshee?} with scorpion tales{nasty} whose primary capability is to simply cause pain for 5 months?

    That sounds like weaponry developed by a liberal.

    Actually it sounds more like what a fundie would design. Who else believes in mythological creatures?¿


    There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by sidelined, posted 12-26-2007 9:03 AM sidelined has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12254
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 14 of 241 (443788)
    12-26-2007 6:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by jar
    12-26-2007 9:16 AM


    Re: The real threat to humanity are End Time Believers
    Jar writes:

    The real threat to humanity are religious believers in End Time Prophecy whether they are Christian End Time believers or Muslim End Time believers.

    So what is society to do? There have been extremists all throughout recorded history.

    I think that these types of issues need to be politically embraced and discussed by candidates. Global Warming is a bigger issue than social security only because if nothing is done to plan for the future, there will be no social security anyway.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by jar, posted 12-26-2007 9:16 AM jar has responded

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     Message 15 by jar, posted 12-26-2007 6:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 15 of 241 (443791)
    12-26-2007 6:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
    12-26-2007 6:33 PM


    Re: The real threat to humanity are End Time Believers
    The answer is transparency, education and wisdom.

    We need to discuss why End Time Believers are a threat and figure out ways to keep them from being in positions of authority.


    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-26-2007 6:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by Tal, posted 12-27-2007 1:32 AM jar has responded
     Message 31 by obvious Child, posted 12-27-2007 6:44 PM jar has responded

      
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