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Author Topic:   Bush promotes ID
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4663 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 195 (229129)
08-03-2005 10:58 AM


This is from the washington post. My bro. just emaild it to me so I don't have a link:

washingtonpost.com
Bush Remarks On 'Intelligent Design' Theory Fuel Debate

By Peter Baker and Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 3, 2005; A01

President Bush invigorated proponents of teaching alternatives to evolution in public schools with remarks saying that schoolchildren should be taught about "intelligent design," a view of creation that challenges established scientific thinking and promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Although he said that curriculum decisions should be made by school districts rather than the federal government, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters in a group interview at the White House on Monday that he believes that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.

"Both sides ought to be properly taught . . . so people can understand what the debate is about," he said, according to an official transcript of the session. Bush added: "Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought. . . . You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes."

These comments drew sharp criticism yesterday from opponents of the theory, who said there is no scientific evidence to support it and no educational basis for teaching it.

Much of the scientific establishment says that intelligent design is not a tested scientific theory but a cleverly marketed effort to introduce religious -- especially Christian -- thinking to students. Opponents say that church groups and other interest groups are pursuing political channels instead of first building support through traditional scientific review.

The White House said yesterday that Bush's comments were in keeping with positions dating to his Texas governorship, but aides say they could not recall him addressing the issue before as president. His remarks heartened conservatives who have been asking school boards and legislatures to teach students that there are gaps in evolutionary theory and explain that life's complexity is evidence of a guiding hand.

"With the president endorsing it, at the very least it makes Americans who have that position more respectable, for lack of a better phrase," said Gary L. Bauer, a Christian conservative leader who ran for president against Bush in the 2000 Republican primaries. "It's not some backwater view. It's a view held by the majority of Americans."

John G. West, an executive with the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank supporting intelligent design, issued a written statement welcoming Bush's remarks. "President Bush is to be commended for defending free speech on evolution, and supporting the right of students to hear about different scientific views about evolution," he said.

Opponents of intelligent design, which a Kansas professor once called "creationism in a cheap tuxedo," say there is no legitimate debate. They see the case increasingly as a political battle that threatens to weaken science teaching in a nation whose students already are lagging.

"It is, of course, further indication that a fundamentalist right has really taken over much of the Republican Party," said Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), a leading liberal lawmaker. Noting Bush's Ivy League education, Frank said, "People might cite George Bush as proof that you can be totally impervious to the effects of Harvard and Yale education."

Bush's comments were "irresponsible," said Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. He said the president, by suggesting that students hear two viewpoints, "doesn't understand that one is a religious viewpoint and one is a scientific viewpoint." Lynn said Bush showed a "low level of understanding of science," adding that he worries that Bush's comments could be followed by a directive to the Justice Department to support legal efforts to change curricula.

Bush gave no sign that he intended to wade that far into the debate. The issue came up only when a reporter from the Knight Ridder news service asked him about it; participants said the president did not seem especially eager to be asked. "Very interesting question," he told the reporter playfully.

At a morning briefing yesterday, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Bush was simply restating long-standing views. "He has said that going back to his days as governor," McClellan said. "I think he also said in those remarks that local school districts should make the decisions about their curriculum. But it's long been his belief that students ought to be exposed to different ideas, and so that's what he was reiterating yesterday."

In comments published last year in Science magazine, Bush said that the federal government should not tell states or school boards what to teach but that "scientific critiques of any theory should be a normal part of the science curriculum."

The president's latest remarks came less than two months after Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, archbishop of Vienna and an influential Roman Catholic theologian, said evolution as "an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection" is not true.

"Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science," Schonborn wrote in the New York Times. He said he wanted to correct the idea that neo-Darwinism is compatible with Christian faith.

Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences, warned this year in a "Dear Colleagues" letter of "increasingly strident attempts to limit the teaching of evolution."

The most prominent debate is underway in Kansas, where the conservative state board of education is expected to require the teaching of doubts about evolution to public high school students. A challenge to the teaching of intelligent design is scheduled for trial in Dover, Pa., while a federal court in Georgia said textbook stickers questioning evolution were unconstitutional.

Slevin reported from Chicago.

Bush is a moron.


Replies to this message:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 2 of 195 (229142)
08-03-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-03-2005 10:58 AM


Should ID be censored?
Bush is a moron.

But that implies even less about the opposition who is routinely outwitted and outmaneuvered by Bush.

Aside from that, I dont believe ID should be taught in public schools because there is nothing scientific to teach. Its a belief. That doesnt mean there shouldnt be a discussion about it. A discussion on ID is not the same as a fully developed lesson plan on ID.

How should ID be treated in schools when a kid in biology class asks about it? It seems to me that a discussion is inevitable and needed. Teachers should be prepared to address the EvC controversy. I dont see how it can be avoided.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 10:58 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 11:55 AM Monk has responded
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 08-04-2005 5:50 AM Monk has responded
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4663 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 3 of 195 (229144)
08-03-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Monk
08-03-2005 11:50 AM


Re: Should ID be censored?
I realize my comment on Bush being a moron can be incendiary to his supporters. I don't want the conversation really to be about Bush himself.

I am more interested in the influence the christian right is having on the republican party. Because, to be honeset, I agree with alot of the "traditional" republican economic values. What I heavely disagree with is current rightward trend that the party is on.

This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-03-2005 11:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 3153 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 4 of 195 (229148)
08-03-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-03-2005 10:58 AM


Hi yaro,

I thought Gary Bauer's comment was quite amusing:

Bauer writes:

With the president endorsing it, at the very least it makes Americans who have that position more respectable

It's reached a pretty desperate stage when Bush's endorsement makes something more respectable than it previously was!

mick


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Replies to this message:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 5 of 195 (229149)
08-03-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Yaro
08-03-2005 11:55 AM


Re: Should ID be censored?
I am more interested in the influence the christian right is having on the republican party.

Wait, I thought the topic was about ID in schools? There are other threads about the christian influence on the republican party.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 11:55 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 12:09 PM Monk has responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4663 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 6 of 195 (229153)
08-03-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Monk
08-03-2005 12:02 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Well, it's both really :)

I found the article both an illustration about how the christian right has influenced our politics, and secondly a story bringing up a contraversy about what should be taught in school.

But I guess you are right in that "Should ID be censored?" is probably a better track.

I would say, there is nothing to censor, ID is bunk and proven so. Would you call it censoring if a teacher chose to teach geocentric theory as an "aleternative" to heliocentric?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Monk, posted 08-03-2005 12:02 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Monk, posted 08-03-2005 12:14 PM Yaro has not yet responded
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-03-2005 4:52 PM Yaro has not yet responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 7 of 195 (229156)
08-03-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Yaro
08-03-2005 12:09 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
I would say, there is nothing to censor, ID is bunk and proven so. Would you call it censoring if a teacher chose to teach geocentric theory as an "aleternative" to heliocentric?

Look at the semantics. I believe there is a big difference between formally "teaching" and informally "discussing". Kids are going to ask about it, so shouldn't it be discussed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 12:09 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by paisano, posted 08-03-2005 12:49 PM Monk has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 3153 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 8 of 195 (229161)
08-03-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-03-2005 10:58 AM


Faith of the Faithless
Hi,

People here may be interested to read a short article by Tim Wise on the relationship between ID and religiosity, with an emphasis on how the two are incompatible. The article was published this morning on Znet following Bush's comments.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=8426

Mick

This message has been edited by mick, 08-03-2005 12:32 PM


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Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 195 (229174)
08-03-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-03-2005 10:58 AM


Both Sides?
I cringe whenever I see the words "both sides" used in this debate. There are many more than two sides involved. So any school board that wants to open the door to teaching creation myth along side of evolution should be required to teach the whole realm of creation myths. For example, this site:

http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html

has a nice list of many different creation myths, though it is by no means complete. A school should be required to teach each of these as possible beginnings of life if it wants to have religion compete with evolution in the classroom.

After all, bush said: "Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought. . . . You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes."

So hell yes, let's teach the kids all of these different creation myths, giving them all equal time, and let them sort it out for themselves.

Then, recognizing it for what it truly is, let's keep this in the arena of elective religion class, going nowhere near science classes.

Oh, and calling bush a moron is giving him much more credit than he deserves and doing a great disservice to morons everywhere.

Verzem


This message is a reply to:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 4589 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 10 of 195 (229179)
08-03-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Monk
08-03-2005 12:14 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
I can't support Bush on this issue.

ID is not scientific, and weakening K-12 science education is likely to have long-term deleterious effects on the economic competitveness and military technology and strength of the US. The latter especially needs to be pointed out to Republicans who regard themselves as "pro-military".

Discusssion of ID as a political and social issue may be a fit topic for a high school civics class.

However ID has no more place in a science class than astrology or alchemy, and as a Republican of the free market libertarian wing, I oppose the party advocating it.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 11 of 195 (229184)
08-03-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by paisano
08-03-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
However ID has no more place in a science class than astrology or alchemy

Then you believe ID should be censored?

Ok, then what should the teacher say when kids ask about it?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 3153 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 12 of 195 (229188)
08-03-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Monk
08-03-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
monk writes:

Then you believe ID should be censored? Ok, then what should the teacher say when kids ask about it?

"Go ask your priest"

mick


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Monk, posted 08-03-2005 12:55 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4663 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 13 of 195 (229191)
08-03-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Monk
08-03-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Then you believe ID should be censored?

I don't think it should be censored, I don't think it should be part of the curriculum. It should not be legitamized as a "theory" or any such thing.

Ok, then what should the teacher say when kids ask about it?

That its debunked science, it's not based on any real evidence, and it is largely a political movement promoted by some radical christian conservatives. Because, factualy, that's exactly what ID is.


This message is a reply to:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 14 of 195 (229195)
08-03-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mick
08-03-2005 12:57 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Go ask your priest

Nice and glib reply, but not practical. Take it a step further. When the kids ask why, what is the teachers reply to that? And so on and so on. Guess what? It becomes a discussion. It can't be avoided.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mick, posted 08-03-2005 12:57 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 144 by mick, posted 08-16-2005 7:39 PM Monk has responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4663 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 15 of 195 (229196)
08-03-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Monk
08-03-2005 1:08 PM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Nice and glib reply, but not practical. Take it a step further. When the kids ask why, what is the teachers reply to that? And so on and so on. Guess what? It becomes a discussion. It can't be avoided.

I agree that it should be discussed, as long as it is discussed in a scientific context. It should be explained that it is not science, because there is no eveidence to support it. They should explain the polatics involved etc. etc.

If a kid walked into your science class and said "Techer, is astrology real?" a conversation will occure there as well. I just wouldn't expect the teacher to even consider portraying astrology as anything other than bunk.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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