Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-24-2019 9:47 AM
33 online now:
1.61803, DWIII, edge, FLRW, Heathen, kjsimons, Percy (Admin), Theodoric (8 members, 25 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,144 Year: 5,181/19,786 Month: 1,303/873 Week: 199/460 Day: 15/29 Hour: 4/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234567Next
Author Topic:   Commonalities Of Accounts Of A Universal Flood?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 1 of 92 (353651)
10-02-2006 2:31 PM


It has been claimed on another thread:

Actually, the amazing fact that there are so many ancient stories of a gigantic flood is unbelievably strong corroboration. The attempts to reduce them all to local floods, as if they all just happened to experience these memorable local floods about the same time that made this huge impact on their consciousness, apart from all the OTHER big floods they must also have experienced over the millennia, is really laughable.

This raises a number of interesting questions.

How widespread are stories of a universal flood?

What do they have in common besides a big flood?

Do they occur only in areas where local flooding is known to have taken place, or are they present elsewhere?

My thanks to anyone who cares to inform me.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 4:30 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 4:57 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 9 by jar, posted 10-02-2006 5:27 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 66 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2006 6:30 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 74 by shytot, posted 12-14-2006 2:29 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 92 (353677)
10-02-2006 4:11 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Please pay very close attention to the questions asked and keep on topic.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 622 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 3 of 92 (353686)
10-02-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 2:31 PM


off of the top of my head, I know that in the southwest US, many of the origin stories do not involve a flood. The one I'm thinking of (though I can't remember the tribe) is where they used up each world, until they got to ours on the very top level.

The flood myths I am familiar with are from Sumer and the OT. I would imagine that the egyptian origin myth would involve water--particularly floods, seeing as how the nile floods were the source of life for them. I would wager that of all the myth stories, wherever the first of those people came from, if there was flooding, and if it was agricultural, there will be a flood involved. Where no flooding required, but agriculture is, then there will be water involved, but probably no flood. If there is no flooding, and not even agriculture, there will be no flood, no water. Just my gueses, mind you.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 2:31 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 10-02-2006 4:40 PM kuresu has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 4 of 92 (353691)
10-02-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by kuresu
10-02-2006 4:30 PM


The one I'm thinking of (though I can't remember the tribe) is where they used up each world, until they got to ours on the very top level.

That sounds like the Navaho story. Before anyone says, "Wait! The Navaho live in the desert!" please note that the Navajo language is a member of the Athabaskan language family, otherwise found on the notrhwest US/canadian coast - wet country.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 4:30 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 4:54 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 622 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 5 of 92 (353694)
10-02-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coragyps
10-02-2006 4:40 PM


I was actually thinking it was Hopi, let me check real quick like

checking . . .checking . . .checking . . .

okay, not Hopi, but it is similar to the Zuni, and defintely is navajo. I don't know their language group though (Zuni). In the Zuni version, there is a hell of a lot of water, the purpose being to find the "middle place", which is where they would live, which just so happens to be the southwest US. Also, they don't go through multiple worlds, but come out from under the world--or rather, if I've it right, their creators.

It's looking that my "guess" is at best, way off.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 10-02-2006 4:40 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30963
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 92 (353697)
10-02-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 2:31 PM


How widespread are stories of a universal flood?

What do they have in common besides a big flood?

Do they occur only in areas where local flooding is known to have taken place, or are they present elsewhere?

My thanks to anyone who cares to inform me.

This is a good idea for a thread and maybe we'll all learn something. All I really know is that there are quite a few, and others at EvC have supported this. I think I should just hit and run here as my computer has been freezing up more than usual today. So here is one site that looks pretty comprehensive:

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

These flood tales are frequently linked by common elements that parallel the Biblical account including the warning of the coming flood, the construction of a boat in advance, the storage of animals, the inclusion of family, and the release of birds to determine if the water level had subsided. The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record), but oral transcription has changed the details through time.

Perhaps the second most important historical account of a global flood can be found in a Babylonian flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When the Biblical and Babylonian accounts are compared, a number of outstanding similarities are found that leave no doubt these stories are rooted in the same event or oral tradition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 2:31 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2006 5:10 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 10-02-2006 5:27 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 13 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-02-2006 8:07 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 7 of 92 (353704)
10-02-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
10-02-2006 4:57 PM


Well there's no doubt that the Bible story is a version of the same story found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. However, floods are common enough in many places of the world, and so are boats. Without a warning it would be difficult for there to be survivors, if you use a boat - an obvious idea - it needs to be ready, Animal survival needs to be explained and what more natural than to include animals on the boat ?

Bellamy, by the way was a populariser of Hoerbiger's Welteislehre ("Universal Ice Theory") pseudoscience, so I would be very wary of trusting him as a source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 4:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1044
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 8 of 92 (353706)
10-02-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
10-02-2006 4:57 PM


The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record),

or.. presumably, equally likely that the bible's record was derived from some other or some conglomeration of the other flood legends.

A local flood at these times may well have given the impression that the whole world was flooded.

It would be interesting to look at the geographical locations of all these flood originators and see if they are flood prone areas.

but oral transcription has changed the details through time.

but wait! isn't the god inspired truth meant to be infallible? other wise what other 'details' have changed through time and transcription?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 4:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 92 (353707)
10-02-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 2:31 PM


There are flood stories from many parts of the world, but I know of no commonality across them. The Biblical story is certainly a retelling or variation of the Gilgamesh Saga, but even there only the idea that there was a big flood and a boat is common.

The important point is that there are place that do not have a world-wide flood myth, an annomaly that refutes any world-wide flood. In addition, areas such as Egypt that depended on annual floods and that had a high level of civilization at the supposed time of the Biblical Flood just plain didn't notice it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 2:31 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 10-02-2006 9:18 PM jar has not yet responded

  
melatonin
Member (Idle past 4318 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 10 of 92 (353715)
10-02-2006 5:53 PM


The welsh legend revolves around Dwyfan and his partner, a dragon-like monster was angered, thrashed around and flooded Briton. Only Dwyfan and his partner survived becoming the Adam and Eve (I think Dafydd is our version of Steve - you'd have to know Little Britain to get that one).

A lake near to were I live is named after the beasty, Lyn yr Afanc, claiming this to be the lake of the legend. Although there are many lakes in Wales named after it.

Apparently the original celtic legend was bastardised by a particular group to conform closer to the bible myth.

ABE: here's an outline...

(Welsh) Also Dwyfan. Dwyvan and his wife, Swyfach, are the heroes of the Welsh flood myth. Together they built an ark, filled it with animals, and survived the great flood caused by Addanc, a lake God/dragon/faery. Though later versions of this myth are distorted in order to make it conform to the Biblical version, the old story shines through and we see that Dwyvan was the personification of the male creative principle which has taken over for the older sacrificed God.

The Welsh deluge legend says that he and his wife were each part of one river which flowed into Bala Lake which was at one time called Lake Dyfrdwy, from the term dyfr-dwyf meaning "water of the divinity".

Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.

Edited by melatonin, : Added stuff and corrected error


  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30963
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 92 (353726)
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories, the universal forest fire stories? If the area is flood-prone, yearly subjected to flooding as the Nile area is, the people wouldn't single out just one event of flooding to make a big deal out of it -- or if there was an unusually big flood they'd still mention it in the context of the yearly pattern -- they lived by it after all.

The fact that such stories exist in such numbers is very likely an indication of a universal memory. The fact that many of them are distorted and embellished with local gods just reflects the imperfection of memory and reason, plus a dollop of local pride.

The Bible account is remarkable for its LACK of embellishment. In fact this is true of the entire Bible, which adds to its credibility in my mind. It's a straightforward account of facts and pertinent details. There's no fat on it, no fairy tale or myth or legend feeling at all. In my humble opinion of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 7:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 8:12 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 17 by melatonin, posted 10-02-2006 8:23 PM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 10-02-2006 8:37 PM Faith has responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 622 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 12 of 92 (353729)
10-02-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


well, I'd say that the noah flood definetly has a myth feeling to it--especially the longetivity of live part (people several hundreds of years old!)(covering the water all the way up to the tops of the mountains!) however . . .

as to the universality, why should the others be equally represented if they are merely local events (the floods, that is). Maybe because along with death, the floods represent life. Out of the death and destruction of life, new life arises. Fires do not do this, earthquakes do not do this.

In every flood story, there is always (as far as I know) a new beginning, a new life. Plus, there is the association of water with life. Fire has nothing linking it with life, nor do earhtquakes, volcanic explosions. We need water. More than any other thing, we need water to live (case in point--man can live no more than a week, if that, without water. he can live almost a month without food).

As to the egyptians, why would they make a big deal out of one flood? Well, perhaps there was a really big flood in their mythical past, and they needed to explain that if you don't worship your gods, they won't send this highly benefical floods, but a massive one to wipe us out. just my conjecture, mind you.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 7:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 13 of 92 (353733)
10-02-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
10-02-2006 4:57 PM


I'm curious as to why these long lists of flood myths leave out the flood myth of the Neworleanian tribe (2005), or that of the Aceh peoples (2004), or that of the Mississippian culture (1993). Civilization has almost always developed along major rivers (Tigris/Euphrates, Nile, Indus, Yangze, Mississippi, etc., etc.,), or their deltas. These rivers were constantly flooding and still are flood prone. Can you find one week where the newspapers are not carrying a story about a major flood somewhere in the world? To the ancient people, these floods were universal. To them, the universe was the distance you could travel in one day. The difficult thing to explain is any culture that does not have a universal or giant flood story. It is the great diversity in these stories that places the biblical flood as just another local myth (and a borrowed myth at that!) What is most amusing is the desperate attempts by bible apologists to insist that all these ancient floods occurred at the same time. The myths themselves place the flood (along with many other founding legends) in 'the time of the ancients', or in 'time out of mind', or 'before men walked the earth'. Yes, I can see where that narrows it down to Tuesday, June 6, 2865bce.

By the by, I just noticed that I am no longer listed as a 'Junior Member'. How did that happen? The only reason I write these stupid posts that no one pays any attention to is to see myself identified as a 'Junior'. Now my last visage of youthful exuberance has been denied me. What can I do to get it back?

Edited by AnswersInGenitals, : Because the voices told me to!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 4:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 8:22 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 14 of 92 (353735)
10-02-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories...

An excellent question!

this website lists earthquake legends from India, Assam, Mexico, Siberia, Mozambique, Tennessee, West Africa, Mongolia, Latvia, Romania, and West Africa.

This website has a similar list, but adds in Japan, Greece, Belgium, Columbia, and East Africa.

Not only do many of these myths have common elements, but some also have elements in common with flood myths; e.g. in the Belgian earthquake myth, earthquakes are sent by the gods to punish men's wickedness (as in the Bible); in one Central American myth, the gods send earthquakes to deal with human overpopulation (as in the Babylonian story of Atrahasis' ark).

The fact that such stories exist in such numbers is very likely an indication of a universal memory. The fact that many of them are distorted and embellished with local gods just reflects the imperfection of memory and reason, plus a dollop of local pride.

The Bible account is remarkable for its LACK of embellishment.

It mentions what was at that time a purely local god. If that is a feature of embellishment, then why should we not suppose the Hebrew version to have been embellished?

I'm not sure about "forest fire stories". People don't usually live in forests, and surely those that did would have a fairly good idea of what started forest fires (i.e. the thunder god hurling his lightning hammer).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 7:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 8:16 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 622 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 15 of 92 (353736)
10-02-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 8:12 PM


more often than not we live in forests (at least ver early on in our history (pre written era). Granted, it's those that live in flood plains and other very fertile areas that developed civilization first.

cool list, though


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 8:12 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
1
234567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019