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Author Topic:   Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 1 of 300 (221703)
07-04-2005 5:11 PM


On this board we argue over this or that detail of creation etc. But a fundamental difference between the evolution & science side of the debate and the creation & religious side, is that it is only on the religious side that true peace can be found. While science can be very interesting, it doesn't gave meaning to our lives or tell us why we are here. To find real inner peace we have to look to God. To find real inner you have to know were to look, here is a link to a very good article on finding it. (two articles) "Can You Find Inner Peace?" http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/7/1/article_01.htm
That is the inner peace we can have by knowing God, now since inner peace is something that we all want and need to have, what is the alternative from the other side of the debate? What inner peace can atheism offer other than the kind mentioned on tombstones? RIP? This need for what can only be found by having a relationship with God, argues for there being a god. This is one of the key things that sets us apart from the animals, we have a spiritual side to us that they just don't have.
This need for inner peace is a basic human need, I am curious to see what alternatives atheists would offer in place of it.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 300 (221707)
07-04-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by wmscott
07-04-2005 5:11 PM


Really needs work
But a fundamental difference between the evolution & science side of the debate and the creation & religious side, is that it is only on the religious side that true peace can be found.
I'm sorry but that is simply such a ridiculous statement that I simply can't even consider promoting this thread as it stands. You need to try to revise it and see if you can frame it in a debatable manner.
Links to the cutesy Watchtower fable are not evidence or even very persuasive, about on the ChickTract level. In adddition you throw in comments and opinions as though they were fact.
To find real inner peace we have to look to God.
To find real inner you have to know were to look
...inner peace is something that we all want and need to have,...
Those and other platitudes make this a topic that is unlikely to lead to a reasoned discussion.
See if you can revise the OP and then post a reply here and we'll take another look.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by wmscott, posted 07-04-2005 5:11 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 3 of 300 (222269)
07-06-2005 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
07-04-2005 5:30 PM


Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
Dear Jar;
Here is my revised OP.
On this board we argue over this or that detail of creation etc. But a fundamental difference between the evolution & science side of the debate and the creation & religious side, is that it is only on the religious side that true peace can be found. While science can be very interesting, it doesn't gave meaning to our lives or tell us why we are here. To find real inner peace we have to look to God. To find real inner you have to know were to look, here is a link to a very good article on finding it. (two articles) "Can You Find Inner Peace?" http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/7/1/article_01.htm & http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/7/1/article_02.htm
The fact that spirituality creates an inner peace that improves mental health, improves coping skills and even has physical health benefits, is well documented by research findings as shown by the following abstract quotes.
Spirituality has become a subject of interest in health care as it is was recognized to have the potential to prevent, heal or cope with illness. There is less doubt that values and goals are important contributors to life satisfaction, physical and psychological health, and that goals are what gives meaning and purpose to people's lives.
Role of religion and spirituality in medical patients: Confirmatory results with the SpREUK questionnaire | Health and Quality of Life Outcomes | Full Text
There is a recognized connection between spirituality and health, and nurse leaders have acknowledged the importance of the spiritual as well as the physical in providing optimal nursing care. Spirituality goes beyond religious or cultural boundaries. Spirituality is characterized by faith, a search for meaning and purpose in life, a sense of connection with others, and a transcendence of self, resulting in a sense of inner peace and well-being. A strong spiritual connection may improve one's sense of satisfaction with life or enable accommodation to disability.
Link to paper:
It appears that religious beliefs and associated moral habits vitally affect health attitudes and behaviors. As a result of this causal relationship, health and disease indices vary in important ways according to the penetration of these beliefs into the daily fabric of the patient's life. Three religious dispositions, born of fundamental belief, anchor those moods and behaviors which profoundly influence health. As these three overarching themes purity of life, peace in existence, and belief in immortality are common to most religions, this paradigm might serve to organize further research on those belief characteristics which have health import. More work is needed to differentiate the relative importance of interacting variables where religion and health are considered; for this inquiry will produce insights with great significance for preventive medicine and public health. As the public response to health care possibilities and imperatives may depend on the penetration and pervasiveness of religious feelings and disciplines, the general culture will benefit from the discoveries of this investigation.
Link to paper:
Spirituality generally relates to better mental health, greater well-being, and higher quality of life. Physical health and medical outcomes may also be affected.
Link to paper:
Research has shown that religiosity and spirituality significantly contribute to psychosocial adjustment to cancer and its treatments. Religion offers hope to those suffering from cancer, and it has been found to have a positive effect on the quality of life of cancer patients. Numerous studies have found that religion and spirituality also provide effective coping mechanisms for patients as well as family caregivers. Research indicates that cancer patients who rely on spiritual and religious beliefs to cope with their illness are more likely to use an active coping style in which they accept their illness and try to deal with it in a positive and purposeful way. Faith-based communities also offer an essential source of social support to patients, and religious organizations can play a direct and vital role in cancer prevention by providing screening, counseling, and educational programs, especially in minority communities.
Link to paper:
The degree of positive effectiveness is related to the degree of religiousness, the more religious or 'closer to God' the person was, the more effective was their inner peace or coping.
FINDINGS: Higher meaning in life scores were associated with higher psychological well-being and lower symptom distress scores. Higher prayer scores were associated with higher psychological well-being scores. Regression analysis indicated that meaning in life mediated the relationship between functional status and physical responses to lung cancer and explained 9% of the variance in symptom distress. Prayer mediated the relationship between current physical health and psychological responses and explained 10% of the variance in psychological well-being. CONCLUSIONS: Aspects of spirituality, meaning in life, and prayer have positive effects on psychological and physical responses in this group of people with lung cancer. IMPLICATIONS FOR NURSING: This research provides knowledge about spirituality and sense of well-being to guide the care of people with lung cancer.
Link to paper:
These articles cover mostly christian religions in general, since the quality or effectiveness of the inner peace was dependant on the degree of religiousness, it is to be expected that some religions will be much more effective than others and some will even have a negative effect. What is important is the degree of religiousness for achieving this general type of inner peace. There is a second kind of inner peace that only comes from God by means of his son. (John 14:27) "I leave YOU peace, I give YOU my peace. I do not give it to YOU the way that the world gives it. Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled nor let them shrink for fear." Biblically Christians have been given the gift of peace by Jesus Christ. This having the 'peace of God' is an important part of being a Christian. Paul referred to this peace many times in his letters.
(Romans 1:7) . . .May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God . . .
(Romans 15:33) "May the God who gives peace be with all of YOU."
(Romans 16:20) . . .the God who gives peace . . .
(Philippians 4:6-7) Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let YOUR petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 4:9) . . .practice these; and the God of peace will be with you.
(2 John 3) There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy [and] peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Son of the Father, with truth and love.
The peace of God is not given to all who claim to follow God, according to Philippians 4:9 we have to practice what was taught to the congregations. "practice these; and the God of peace will be with you."
This peace of God which he gives to those who serve him, is a very calming peace and has carried true servants of God through horrors like the Nazi concentration camps. ("When I met Jehovah's Witnesses I saw they were not damaged," he said. "They were still intact. How could they survive without the suffering and mental damage I had?"- http://zephyr.unr.edu/.../fall_02_pages/fredrickson_hol.html )That is the inner peace we can have by knowing God, now since inner peace is something that we all want and need to have, what is the alternative from the other side of the debate? This is one of the key things that sets us apart from the animals, we have a spiritual side to us that they just don't have.
This need for inner peace is a basic human need, I am curious to see what alternatives atheists would offer in place of it.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 07-06-2005 9:41 PM wmscott has not replied
 Message 7 by bobbins, posted 07-06-2005 11:32 PM wmscott has replied
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2005 11:37 PM wmscott has replied
 Message 9 by mikehager, posted 07-07-2005 12:18 PM wmscott has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 300 (222272)
07-06-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by wmscott
07-06-2005 9:26 PM


I will promote this with some trepidation.
I think the revised version makes even less sense than the original but if you want to put it out there, so be it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by wmscott, posted 07-06-2005 9:26 PM wmscott has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 300 (222273)
07-06-2005 9:42 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4843 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 6 of 300 (222277)
07-06-2005 11:15 PM


I didn't read the OP, but I'll ramble on about inner peace for a second anyway.
I think the only way to have inner peace is to accept reality, and not to get caught up on the ways you wish the world was. I am going to die one day, and I believe that will be the end of me. I've accepted that, that is my reality. It doesn't hinder my inner peace, though, it strengthens it.
Before I could truly accept it I had to keep telling myself stories about how I'd live forever somehow in some magical utopia where all my dreams would come true. But there was always some doubt in the back of my mind, something telling me these stories I told myself were just delusions to shield my fragile mind from the harsh reality. So one day I decided to tackle this "harsh" reality head on, for myself. If I stop existing I won't be aware of it, anymore than I was aware before I was born. All I will ever know is what it is like to be alive, and I think that's good enough for me. Shouldn't I just be happy to of existed at all? Most potential human beings never even get this far, they never experienced existance.
I think the only way to find inner peace is to accept that one day you won't exist, and be fine with it.

Replies to this message:
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bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 7 of 300 (222279)
07-06-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by wmscott
07-06-2005 9:26 PM


Re: Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
wow.
Where to start on this one.
A minor point perhaps, but the links are to subscription only articles, except Zephyr and Watchtower, so it makes it a little difficult to check out the collection techniques, question types, FULL conclusions and other salient data pertaining to the quoted extracts.
A few remarks on one of the studies. The Health and Quality of Life Outcomes study is based on questionnaires completed by sufferers of cancer, MS, chronic and acute diseases. Healthy folk not included. In my (albeit limited) experience, people not suffering from the above list of ailments form the majority of society. All respondents were within the 40 to 65 age group. Again narrowing the focus for study. The notes also state that some parts of the questionnaire require a positive attitude towards spirituality and religion. So putting it baldly the survey states that a minority of people who are already predisposed towards sprituality and religion have the potential to prevent, heal or cope with illness.(The last bit not supported in the article details open to me. Also with no success in prevention as they are all ill. Further, the background notes the number of studies examining the connection between spirituality and prevention, healing or coping with illness, without conclusion.) The notes also state that direct reference to institutional religion were avoided, that is God, Jesus, praying, church etc were not mentioned in the questionnaire. So a pretty tentative possible link here between inner peace, not mentioned in the articles, and god, again not mentioned in the article. A further read gleans the quote "In the post-treatment orientation phase of cancer patients, more existentialistic issues in the patients' attempt to manage the implications of their disease in daily life are of outstanding importance". I'm not really being convinced here of the connection between religion and inner peace.
I cannot give much more feedback on the other articles as full access is denied to me so the quotes in the OP could be genuine, empirically based conclusions. I have my doubts though, as one study mentions questions related to "prayer activities and experiences". So I sense a slight bias to institutional religion.
With regard to the rest of the content of the OP, I agree with Jar's reservations. Too many bald assertions of fact without any supporting evidence, with the possible exception of the Jehovah's Witness testimony. Peer review that if you can! Other problems to consider are definition and phraseology. Peace is referred to as true and inner and real. Which? All? Inner peace equals knowing the meaning of life and having a purpose in life. Most atheists have a very good appreciation of purpose in life (survival, procreation) and meaning (same thing along with acceptance of your own mortality). Does that equal inner peace without reference to a god? For me it does. No god required or religion or a spiritual dimension.
The OP is just too arguable and contentious to begin with and I probably should not rise up to the bait, but I have. Oh well.

Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.
Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.
Whoops!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by wmscott, posted 07-06-2005 9:26 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 300 (222280)
07-06-2005 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by wmscott
07-06-2005 9:26 PM


There is no such thing
There is no inner peace, just as there is no outer peace.
And anyway, what matters is the Truth, not peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by wmscott, posted 07-06-2005 9:26 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by wmscott, posted 07-07-2005 6:56 PM robinrohan has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 9 of 300 (222353)
07-07-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by wmscott
07-06-2005 9:26 PM


Re: Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
It is the height of arrogance to claim that inner peace, which I take to mean a sense of well being and general fulfillment, is only possible via belief in a given mythology.
All of the positive effects you cite could just as easily be available to any person with a positive outlook on life. That's all fine, but where you fall is where many theists fall; by assuming that the way they think they achieved a sense of "inner peace" is the only way to do so. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am an atheist with a job I like, hobbies I enjoy, friends I care about and a family I love. I'm doing pretty good. I am quite fullfilled. Your claim that "true peace" can only be found the way YOU did, by YOUR beliefs is false and the height of shamefull vanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by wmscott, posted 07-06-2005 9:26 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by wmscott, posted 07-07-2005 6:58 PM mikehager has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 300 (222367)
07-07-2005 1:05 PM


Wrong Forum!
Shouldn't this be in the 'Joke of the Month ' forum?
I'm surprised at you Wm, you normally post very interesting and well reasoned posts, this one is well below the standard that most of us come to expect from you.
Brian.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 300 (222371)
07-07-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
07-07-2005 1:05 PM


Re: Wrong Forum!
I have to agree that the basic premise of this thread is faulty.As a Christian I find that some days I have what I guess you could call inner peace, and some days my gut is tied up in knots.
I also have very little doubt that there are adherents of other faiths including Atheism that have more inner peace than I do. I think it has more to do with my personality type.
I do think however that I as an individual have a greater peace about things than I would if I wasn't a Christian, which is because of the life style changes that I made in my life when I accepted the Christian faith.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 300 (222423)
07-07-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by wmscott
07-04-2005 5:11 PM


This need for inner peace is a basic human need, I am curious to see what alternatives atheists would offer in place of it.
What makes you think you can't have peace as an atheist? I'm way more peaceful inside now that I'm an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.
This need for what can only be found by having a relationship with God, argues for there being a god.
But the fact that we don't have that need argues for there being no God.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by wmscott, posted 07-08-2005 5:16 PM crashfrog has replied

wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 13 of 300 (222424)
07-07-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by JustinC
07-06-2005 11:15 PM


Dear JustinC;
I am going to die one day, and I believe that will be the end of me. I've accepted that, that is my reality. It doesn't hinder my inner peace, though, it strengthens it.
I respect your courage and honesty, you have accepted your end and made peace with it. I wish everyone would face things as unflinchingly as you have. That being said, I will also point out that you have accepted the unacceptable, being willing to give up existing. What if there is an alternative? Reminds me of when a ferry sank and the Moslems on board accepted it as the will of Ala and drowned, while the others swam to shore. You owe it to yourself to find out if there is a hope that is real. I claim to have found that there is one, it is the only hope there is, so I advise you to check it out. My belief is not based on pure faith or wishful thinking, I have logically proved it as being real and you can do the same. Accepting nonexistence if it were truly the only possibility would be realistic, but it is not a hope or even healthy for your mind. I find any idea that embraces death or fatalism, unhealthily and a very bad standard to live by. One should be able to do better than having a hope of aspiring to be compost.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 14 of 300 (222427)
07-07-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by bobbins
07-06-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
Dear bobbins;
Peace is referred to as true and inner and real. Which? All? Inner peace equals knowing the meaning of life and having a purpose in life. Most atheists have a very good appreciation of purpose in life (survival, procreation) and meaning (same thing along with acceptance of your own mortality). Does that equal inner peace without reference to a god? For me it does. No god required or religion or a spiritual dimension.
Yes I agree that atheists can have inner peace, of a basic sort. In talking about inner peace, and true inner peace, I am talking about degrees of peace and types of inner peace. The basic kind is just being at peace with yourself, a deeper inner peace would be being at peace with yourself and with God while true or real inner peace in the perfect sense would be the peace that comes from God by the holy spirit. That is the kind of peace Jehovah's Witnesses displayed in the concentration camps, that degree of inner peace can only come from God. The difference is important, for the basic kind is fine when you are "fat and happy" but when you are not, you need something more. The peace found in human philosophy fails when confronted with harsh realties like death and other horrors we find in this world.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 15 of 300 (222428)
07-07-2005 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by robinrohan
07-06-2005 11:37 PM


Re: There is no such thing
Dear robinrohan;
There is no inner peace, just as there is no outer peace. And anyway, what matters is the Truth, not peace.
It is knowing the Truth (and acting on it), that gives peace. No peace is possible without Truth, lies and deceptions always bring trouble. (John 8:32) "YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free." It is only by knowing the Truth that we can gain freedom from not just injustice and violence, but from sin and death as well. Once the Truth has set you free, then you will know peace.
Truth is what the Bible is all about, and Jesus is the truth.
(John 14:6) "Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
But it is not just a matter of accepting Jesus and everything is great, we have to worship with spirit and truth, our worship must conform to biblical requirements to be acceptable.
(John 4:23-24) "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."
There is no peace in the world because it doesn't know truth.
(John 14:17) "the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU."
If we are for Truth, we will follow Christ.
(John 18:37) "Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice."
It is God's will that everyone learn the Truth, the way is open for everyone.
(1 Timothy 2:3-4) "This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth."
I would be happy to help you to learn about the Truth. My e-mail address is in my profile.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
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