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Author Topic:   Anti-Islam school presentation
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 1 of 17 (386842)
02-24-2007 2:43 AM


From FoxNews.com
quote:
The father of a North Carolina ninth grader who was given "anti-Muslim" literature in class says the material handed out is not an issue of free speech, but of slander and defamation.
"First of all, it slanders, things like, Mohammed is a 'criminal,' is 'demon possessed' ... that just made my blood boil," said Triaq Butte, whose daughter, Saira, participated in a ninth grade orientation seminar at Enloe High School in Wake County, N.C., where the material was distributed.
Butte is a non-practicing Muslim; he said his wife is Christian and his children are taught to accept and respect all religions.
"So for a person like me to feel like that ” I've never been to a mosque ” to feel like that . for me to feel such hideous attacks, they were not just pointing out failures or weaknesses in Islam or Muslims, they were just attacking."
A representative from the Kamil International Ministries Organization, a Christian group based in Raleigh, was invited by a teacher to come and speak to the class. He handed out literature that compared the teachings of Jesus with accusations against the Prophet Muhammad.
Among the materials handed out was a pamphlet called "Jesus not Muhammad," as well as one entitled, "Do Not Marry a Muslim Man." The latter pamphlet compares parts of the Koran with those of the Bible, such as:
"Husband, beat your wives and deny them sex." (The book of Islam, Koran 4:34)
” "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her." (The Holy Bible, Ephesians 5:25)
It warns women not to be lured into marrying a Muslim, even for his "dark good looks, education, financial means, and the interest he shows in you."
"You may be excited that you found the 'tall, dark, and handsome man' you have been looking for. His sweet words and attention may blind you regarding the power, importance, and influence of his culture and Islamic faith," the pamphlet says. "Because in the United States, we have freedom of religion, he may agree that you can remain a Christian and you may think there will be no problem with such a marriage. But do not be fooled and become a victim of his religion, Islam, which has very oppressive rules regarding women's status and rights. Such marriages will never be out of trouble."
Kamil International Ministries has every right to believe what they believe and say what they say, but they do NOT have the right to force their virulent message upon high school students, especially without prior parental knowledge.
What do you guys think?
See also The Lede's blog entry on the issue.
And (surprise!) CBN doesn't seem terribly concerned.

Replies to this message:
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AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 17 (386865)
02-24-2007 10:23 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 3 of 17 (386888)
02-24-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-24-2007 2:43 AM


Jaderis writes:
Kamil International Ministries has every right to believe what they believe and say what they say, but they do NOT have the right to force their virulent message upon high school students, especially without prior parental knowledge.
I agree with that; I believe a comparisocn of two idealogies could be educational, but should be tastefully presented. I would not object to a something like this if it were.
I do not like quote-mining. It is fun when you are, say, catholic as I am, and someone hands you anti-catholic literature, and you can TELL that someone is quote-mining and grasping at straws. But does your average high-school student know the Bible and the Koran so well? And know both faiths so well?
You can definitely look in the Bible and find damning passages, but no real follower of the Bible will condone rape and pillage, genocide or slavery. It is not fair to present another group based on the bad passages either...or to characterize all Muslims that way.
I do believe that Muslims could treat women a bit better, not because they cover themselves and can't vote, etc, but I have a friend who is Orthodox, essetailly 'married' to a Muslim, who is nice and sweet and quiet, but ever so subtly he demeans her. He will not marry her because his family will protest, he does not let her arrange the house or furnish the house, or accept gifts which he finds 'ugly'. Is that because of his religion or societal up-bringing? I don't know. That type of controlling is not by any means limited to Muslim men. I think a caution for all women to recognize and avoid abuse or defamation is good, but not like in this scenerio.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 17 (386911)
02-24-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-24-2007 2:43 AM


In short, the teacher who invited the christian group should be fired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2007 2:43 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 5 of 17 (386927)
02-24-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-24-2007 2:43 AM


No religious group of ANY kind...
quote:
A representative from the Kamil International Ministries Organization, a Christian group based in Raleigh, was invited by a teacher to come and speak to the class. He handed out literature that compared the teachings of Jesus with accusations against the Prophet Muhammad.
...has any business in a public school. That's why it is a public school for all publics to attend.
Children should be taught at home about religious matters, (or in religious schools), and that includes lessons on mahomet.
quote:
"First of all, it slanders, things like, Mohammed is a 'criminal,' is 'demon possessed'
So far as slandering mahomet is concerned? With easy internet access, a study about his life is quickly found. It is then possible to determine exactly who mahomet was. One might suggest this to the outraged non-practicing muslim, or really anyone who is curious about such rumors.
quote:
"Husband, beat your wives and deny them sex." (The book of Islam, Koran 4:34)
” "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her." (The Holy Bible, Ephesians 5:25)
This happens to be true. However, it has no business in a school, it has no business being given to children regardless of age and without guidance from parents.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 6 of 17 (387092)
02-26-2007 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by DorfMan
02-24-2007 7:46 PM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
This happens to be true.
Just for reference, this is the full verse (from English Tranlation of Sura 1-4):
quote:
The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
Do we have a resident expert on Arabic who is able to determine if this was the orginal meaning?

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 7 of 17 (387095)
02-26-2007 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-24-2007 2:43 AM


Just a commentary about the Koran
I found this to be amusing from that pamphlet (and seems to found via Google search at hundreds of Christian websites:
"Husband, beat your wives and deny them sex." (The book of Islam, Koran 4:34)
” "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her." (The Holy Bible, Ephesians 5:25)
The latter quote is exact form the New International Translation. The former quote however from the Koran is completely reworded:
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Now I agree that the gist is the same. The passage is pretty much saying what the Christian pamphlet alledges. But do fundies want to open that can 'o worms? I mean what is the gist of "Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul" (1 Sam. 18:3)? Or even more revealing "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, 'Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness'" (1 Sam. 20:30). We all know what 'confusion' means, nudge nudge, wink, wink.
The point here is not about King David's sexuality, but about how printing one point as a fair translation and the opposition's point as a paraphrase is severly dishonest (although I love to throw in the David/Jonathan thing into any good debate with fundies, fun to watch them squirm).
Had the teacher brought the group in as an example of alternate thought, I would be all for it. They should also have the Islamic views presented. If the teacher brought this group in as evidence, they should be fired on the spot.
When I was in high school our history teacher had a communist activist come into speak in our class. We were told beforehand that this person would present a viewpoint that was in opposition to most of our beliefs. But that we need to allow a voice for dissenting beliefs. She came, spoke, was absolutely terrible. High school students shredded her arguments. But later the teacher was in trouble for allowing this person to speak. We all stood up for the teacher, as her intent was to show us a different viewpoint (however incorrect). So I think the intent of the teacher needs to be examined.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 8 of 17 (387257)
02-27-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy
02-26-2007 2:56 AM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
it's really no different than "women, obey your husbands" and with an even better reason. if the man is providing for her, she should respect his wishes more than her own. if she is providing for him, the opposite is true.
further, why should one be intimate and open with someone who is disgracing him?
and honor their husbands during their absence
if nothing else, this sounds like unfaithfulness. why should you be with your wife if she's fucking around?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 17 (387262)
02-27-2007 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by macaroniandcheese
02-27-2007 12:06 PM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
and honor their husbands during their absence
if nothing else, this sounds like unfaithfulness. why should you be with your wife if she's fucking around?
I read it as "honor their husbands during thier husband's absence" not, "honor their husbands during their own absence".

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 17 (387263)
02-27-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
02-27-2007 12:41 PM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
yes, during their husbands' absence. if you're off in tajikistan on business, your lady might get bored in her little house in rural jordan... this commands her to behave herself while you're away.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 17 (387265)
02-27-2007 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by macaroniandcheese
02-27-2007 12:48 PM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
oh...now your reply makes LESS sense.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 17 (387266)
02-27-2007 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
02-27-2007 1:05 PM


Re: No religious group of ANY kind...
... try reading.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 17 (387286)
02-27-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by macaroniandcheese
02-27-2007 1:17 PM


OOOOooooohh...is THAT what I'm suppose to be doing?

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Rascaduanok
Junior Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 21
From: Save Warp
Joined: 05-02-2007


Message 14 of 17 (399219)
05-04-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy
02-26-2007 2:56 AM


from the Arabic
surah an-Nisa’ (4):34 writes:
Husbands should take full care of their wives, with what God has given to some more than others, and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in their husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teachings of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them: God is most high and great.
Edited by Rascaduanok, : Correcting a minor spelling error.

$_=q{$_=q{Q};s/Q/$_/;print};s/Q/$_/;print

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 15 of 17 (399295)
05-04-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by anastasia
02-24-2007 1:28 PM


Quote mining
I do not like quote-mining. It is fun when you are, say, catholic as I am, and someone hands you anti-catholic literature, and you can TELL that someone is quote-mining and grasping at straws. But does your average high-school student know the Bible and the Koran so well? And know both faiths so well?
You can definitely look in the Bible and find damning passages, but no real follower of the Bible will condone rape and pillage, genocide or slavery. It is not fair to present another group based on the bad passages either...or to characterize all Muslims that way.
Hi, Ana, I`m a little confused (normal for me, my friends say). You say you dislike quote mining, then tell us a ' real follower' will discount the rape/pillage/genocide/slavery passages. Isn`t this a form of quote mining?

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