egotheistic pantheism revealed...

In the thread I met God, Iceage writes: All philosophies and religions are exclusive... including egotheistic pantheism.The cosmic vaccume cleaner of popular [new age pantheism] just opposes and exalts itself over everything else and claims that they (the knowing) are one with the divine. They are God. They believe we are evolving into the self aware universe, and that is everything, and that is God.If you are unfamilliar with this stripe of pantheism, then watch the movie, 'What the Bleep do we Know'. J. Z. Knight, or Ramtha (as she calls herself, and who channels the Hindu God Ram) will flat out tell you, 'You are God'.That particular movie is revealing and far more honest than the typical 'self-described' new ager, who is really only flirting with the concept of panthesim. They posit the idea that we create our own reality, and that the problem with the world is that we need to shift from the Christian paradigm, to the 'true' paradigm.And they especially exclude the religions that are openly exclusive. They mock and impune the primitive believers of those narrow systems as evil (by implication). But to imply that something is evil is to exclude it from being true! For if anything is the heart of evil it is falsehood.But the egotheistic pantheist cannot take to being examined very carefully because being God, he or she does not like to be challenged. God owns Himself / Herself. He is His own. If you challenge them, they will collectively attack your backside for speaking with disrespect to the Kings and Queens of the universe. Like they did to Jesus, they will slap you for your arrogance.1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your ownThat is why I reject 'new age' pantheism without excuse. Because it is a fraud. An imposter that sets itself up, as the very thing it claims not to be. It opposes itself. It is a contradiction and a falsehood; a deception. It is the most exclusive of all because it calls itself the truth! It is a copy of Christianity even to the extent of each member being part of the body. Some of it is so close to Christianity that it is like the negative of a photograph.Well, it is either the truth or the antitruth; Christ or antichrist. One thing is certain... as sure as there is a hell, there is no middle ground. One openly reveals it's true nature (that of exclusivity) and the other will avoid admitting that at the expense of reason itself.Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.But it will sell. Man (as oppposed to God) does it sell in this dark time. Because the philosophy promises that you can have your physical cake and eat your spiritual fruitcake too. You can indulge like the carnal God that they accuse the God of the Bible of being.2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.Job 34:33 Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know.Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets (love the truth and tell it). 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.Question for this thread: Would any egotheistic pantheist like to challenge this interpretation and exclude it from being true? or anyone else for that matter?Bible study?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

I will challenge the length of this as an opening topic. I may appear to be hard on you, scottness, but I want to emphasize that this forum is not your forum nor your own personal blog or a platform for witnessing and preaching.For one thing, it is not good form to start a topic out as an assertion without backing it up with evidence.You may think I have joined the dark side, but I actually agree with many of your premises in part. I am just picky as to the length and format of this topic. If you rewrite it and tighten it up, I'll promote it. I will give you one week to respond.

What did you have in mind?

Shorten it and provide a working definition of pantheism as well as replacing the scriptures with links. It never hurts to rewrite an opening statement so as to make it instantly readable by passing folk.

??? To crosswalk.com?No scripture = no evidence.

I'm going to step on some toes here and move this topic live. I know that there are several people waiting to debate it and I don't see a problem with how the op is written.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Asgara, I'd be lying if I said you didn't scare me just a little...But for better or worse, thank you.

This is a crazy statement that makes absolutely no sense.Scottness, I would have thought you would have rewritten this part.

That's not an argument Iceage, it's an accusation. Please enlighten me as to why, and I'll consider revisions.

Ok sorry I was in a hurry and did not have time to explain. When discussing exclusivity within the realm of religion what is usually meant is that a religious view is considered exclusive if its core doctrine claims that it is the only way to God and that they worship the "One True God". A religion that is exclusive, views competitor religions as false and that they are a deliberate distortion or counterfeit under the influence of the anti-god.There are religions that are not exclusive in that they allow for other ways to know God (ie many paths to the top of the mountain). That does not necessarily mean they would welcome and tolerate you going to their meetings, standing up on a chair spouting your exclusive view that they are going to hell to burn.Now down to this statement.... They may reject the exclusive point of view that any contemporary religion can claim to have the complete truth. I dunno I am not a student of pantheism - I know others are so i suspect you will get an earfull here. Evil can be very true.Genocide is evil but true.Child pornography is evil but sadly true.Rape is evil but true.I can call those evil and not exclude them from being true.Finally you say "the heart of evil ... is falsehood". I would say the heart of evil is opposed to life.

Thanks Iceage, I can understand why you think the way you do. Let me explain why I believe it is false. Please indulge me...Iceage:Of course not, because I would remind them that if there is more than one way to God, then that excludes the belief that there is only one way to God.They have escaped nothing!Iceage:Rejection is exclusion. If you say you are right and I am wrong, but that I have the right to be wrong and will still go to heaven, then you exclude the opposite that I am right, and there is only one way to heaven. Any religion can claim exclusivity. All of them do philosophically. It is not even something that can be challenged. The logic is flawless, because logic is flawless.The thing is, not all religions can be exclusivly true. Ravi Zacharius put's it this way: (Ravi Zacharius/ Lecture/ Understanding the Spirit of the Age)It's the basis of logic. The law of non-contradiction. That two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time unless they are qualified in some way. As soon as you challenge it, you prove it, because if you challenge it, you must infer that it is not correct.1+1 only equals 2. Not 3 or 7 or 19. (not a solid analogy for the wise, but point made).The worst part is this... (privatization of faith) People who have been led to believe that there are many ways to God, think that in the name of peace they should let others believe what they want. But if others are wrong they need to know... because they are causing enormous problems and conflict in their wrongheadedness.The truth (reality) whateverit is must be proclaimed form the rooftops. It is the good news. It is the missing equation in our thinking that would solve our condition. Assuming we want to give up our condition that is... Assuming we don't choose our sins instead.Iceage:With all due respect, don't hold your breath...Iceage:This is why I said I can understand why you think that. Because you are partially correct. But there is another dimension to consider.Evil is a reality in this dualist and temporal reality of good and evil. But it is not reality in the eternal sense. Evil is really only incoherent potential. It is limitless chaos. But it is truely evil. It's not as though it's normal or just a concept. Not to life. Evil is antithetical to life. Evil is death, confusion and noncoherent dispertion of order (life).[/b]But evil is never true.[/b] There is a difference between something being real vs.true. Lies are a reality, but they are never true. And lies (contradictions) start in the spiritual dimension, and manifest themselves into the physical reality.Iceage:I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. Well said. But what is life? It is order and cohesion to such an exquisite extreme, that consciousness is created; Spiritual first (coherence / truth) manifest into the physical. Life is Truth!So the opponent to life is disorder; Spiritual first (incoherence / lies) manifset into the physical. Lies are death!John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.And he said in John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.That last quote was not directed at you btw, Iceage. It is just for illustrating the exquisite logic of Christ. I've always got the impression you were and honest skeptic. Very skeptical perhaps... but not all false.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

Quick question; how do you deal with the philosophy of Christian Pantheism? Who is excluding who, in that case?

Actually, it doesn't matter... The point is, that whatever it is, it is exclusive.The truth by defintion is exclusive. When we make an affirmation, we are excluding it's opposite.It doesn't even have to be considered a spiritual religion. Many humanists think all of the conflict in the world is the falt of religion. They exclude all of them. But when you look deeper at such extremes of naturalism, you find the Humean position which turns out to be a metaphysical statement, decrying the ability for a metaphysical statement to be true.It takes a spirit to deny a spirit.What is interesting, is that some forms of pantheism are very simmilar to Christianity. That is why they make so much sense to people. Because it is almost the whole (holy) truth. And they don't have to repent of their sins.It was Ravi who said, 'They get to have their spiritual cake and eat their physical fulfilment too'. But he said the spurious glitter of pantheism is beggining to fade, and we are called at this difficult time, to tell them the truth. That they are forgiven and loved so much by a God who knows and endured the agony of living in this cruel world.John 4:7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." 11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" 13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." 15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water." 16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." 17 "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true." 19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Sure and so. First does pantheism dictate that *all* paths lead to god. Do pantheist believe that all aspects of all other religions are valid?A non-exclusive religious philosophy would by definition exclude exclusive religious philosophies.I read your quote by Ravi Zacharius and laughed because he builds stawmen just like you do. Does pantheism claim that all "religions are right"? I just read the wiki on Pantheism and see (like Christianity and other religions) has many different flavors.I did not see "all religions are right". There is in the definition "All is God" but that does not equate to all is true. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.