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Author Topic:   ID, Creo's and Fossils
kuresu
Member (Idle past 591 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 1 of 30 (311418)
05-12-2006 12:56 PM


I was wondering how IDer's and Creo's handle fossils, particularly those that are in the Homo genus.

If we were intelligently designed, why would there be these fossils that are obviously failures (those species are now extinct).

If we were created by God, and we are all descended from Adam, then is Adam a H. sapiens or is he H. habilus or whichever Homo species is the oldest in the fossil record. And what is the implication of Adam being a H. habilus?


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Message 2 of 30 (312778)
05-17-2006 10:40 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
realuniverse
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 30 (313044)
05-18-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
05-12-2006 12:56 PM


looks like we evolved from hybrids
http://tinyurl.com/ng9mx
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 2983 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 4 of 30 (317242)
06-03-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by realuniverse
05-18-2006 1:29 AM


Still doesn't explain the church's view.

I actually got into a debate with a creationist once, and i asked him how he explained things like oil and dinosaurs, which have been dated to millions of years, where he believed the universe was comparitively young, only somthing like 4000 years. He said they were placed there by god at the beggining of time. I asked him if god was trying to trick us, he didn't respond...

Edited by Damouse, : oops


-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
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DarkBoards
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 30 (364886)
11-20-2006 11:00 AM


Oh i've actually heard this one while travelling in the bible belt. What I was told was essentially that God placed fossils underground to "test our faith".

It's quite an astounding position to take, which amounts to essentially saying that we should ignore all physical evidence and simply believe whatever the church tells you blindly

Edited by DarkBoards, : No reason given.


http://www.DarkBoards.Com/board
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 30 (364887)
11-20-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by DarkBoards
11-20-2006 11:00 AM


Fundies worship Loki
Welcome to EvC. You must remember that such people worship Loki and so that is a reasonable position for them to take.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 7 of 30 (364902)
11-20-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
05-12-2006 12:56 PM


Our Inner Ape
I was wondering how IDer's and Creo's handle fossils, particularly those that are in the Homo genus

Th ID and creationist position is that these alleged hominid fossils are nothing more than fossils of a race of chimpanzee, unknown extinct ape species or diseased humans.

However, another interesting question is that if "Man" is made in the image of God then how should we treat Chimpanzee's and Bonobo's that are near human and must be "made, pretty darn near, in the image of God".

Why would God create a gradation of species that are close to being human? Why can human behavior be explained and extrapolated from more privative chimpanzee behavior?

I remember visiting Cheyenne mountain Zoo when I was a youngster and seeing Chimp's and Ape's for the first time close up. I was stunned at how remarkably similar to humans they looked. Their hands and fingernails were very close to my own. Their facial expressions and the they way they interacted with each other reminded me of my own kindergarten playground at recess :) I think that was point that I started questioning the storybook creationist tale I was getting told at Sunday school. Maybe Zoo's should be banned.

If we were created by God, and we are all descended from Adam, then is Adam a H. sapiens or is he H. habilus or whichever Homo species is the oldest in the fossil record. And what is the implication of Adam being a H. habilus?

Whoa dude don't go there. Creationist our offended to think that Adam was anything but a full human.

However in thinking this way creationist have lowered the vision of God, the creator of all, to nothing more than a super primate. Not that is insulting.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 8 of 30 (364927)
11-20-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by iceage
11-20-2006 12:00 PM


Re: Our Inner Ape
iceage writes:

Creationist our offended to think that Adam was anything but a full human.

Fuller than full, even. Fundies think of Adam as homo perfectus.

They don't seem as concerned about change over time as with the direction of the change - devolution versus evolution. Instead of getting "better" than the apes, we're getting worse than our pre-fallen ancestors.

Pity they can't show fossils of the declining years of mankind.


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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 9 of 30 (364963)
11-20-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
11-20-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Our Inner Ape
ringo writes:

Fuller than full, even. Fundies think of Adam as homo perfectus.

They don't seem as concerned about change over time as with the direction of the change - devolution versus evolution. Instead of getting "better" than the apes, we're getting worse than our pre-fallen ancestors.

Pity they can't show fossils of the declining years of mankind.

Yes, I neglected that point. Everything was perfect in garden. Megalodon and T-Rex where peaceful vegetarians before the de-evolutionary process.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 10 of 30 (365182)
11-21-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iceage
11-20-2006 4:39 PM


fauna = friends, not food
iceage:

Everything was perfect in the garden. Megalodon and T-Rex were peaceful vegetarians before the de-evolutionary process.

Those teeth and claws would be perfect for pulling down bananas, wouldn't they?

___

Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Confidence
Member (Idle past 4396 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 11 of 30 (365877)
11-24-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Archer Opteryx
11-21-2006 3:22 PM


Re: ... whatever
I am a creationist.

I remember being told in grade 5 that God created the fossils to test our faith. I believed it. But not no more. I think that any Christian willing to say that God tests us with fossils is considering God to be an evil one, to deceive us. There is only one test God had for us, anything but deceiving. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Since all these previous posts are nothing but speculation and trash talk. I'll join in.

I speculate that Adam was smarter than us. Ever hear about those people with an amazing memory? People with mathematical skills beyond imagining? Or those artist painting beautiful paintings? etc...
Add all of em up and you got Adam. Yes, because after the fall into sin, God cursed everything because of our disobedience, therefore everything is going downhill. Not uphill, like those poor evolutionists think everything is heading. But maybe after 5 billion years downhill mutations, even they maybe convinced.

As for God's image, (cant believe people still believe this), it does not talk about our physical bodies, you silly! You really think that monkeys are less that God's image?
No merely, God's image talks about how we socially interact with one another. Love, a love for living beings, a love for things that are beautiful, a love for things that are right. Of course, the fall into sin sort of smashed that image, and we are left with people who like to rape, who like to hate/kill their neighbour. Ah, but if evolution is true, this is just natural. Forget about right and wrong, those ideas are just silly.

Yeah, I released some steam there didn't I?


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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 30 (365880)
11-24-2006 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Confidence
11-24-2006 9:28 PM


Re: ... whatever
Not uphill, like those poor evolutionists think everything is heading

Evolution does not demand that organisms get stronge/faster/smarter/bigger. Evolution demands that organisms get better adapted to their ecological niche or die. There is no inherent direction involved.

Of course, the fall into sin sort of smashed that image, and we are left with people who like to rape, who like to hate/kill their neighbour. Ah, but if evolution is true, this is just natural. Forget about right and wrong, those ideas are just silly.

Evolution says nothing about morals. I find it troubling that some christians like you proudly proclaim that the only thing keeping you from being a sociopath is the supposed commandents of your imaginary friend.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Edited by DrJones*, : spllng id gud


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 13 of 30 (365900)
11-25-2006 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by DrJones*
11-24-2006 10:04 PM


Re: ... whatever
Evolution says nothing about morals. I find it troubling that some christians like you proudly proclaim that the only thing keeping you from being a sociopath is the supposed commandents of your imaginary friend.

Christians do not say that law keeps people from being sociopaths. They say that the commandments show that we are sociopaths. They do not keep us from being sociopaths.

Only god can keep us from being sociopaths. But we do not let Him because that would mean giving up control of our lives. That is why Christians believe and trust in the one man who did give up control of his life. They figure he knows better than they do about how to really live. They just can't do it themselves, and as a result know they need him.

But you know better... don't you DrJones?


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 14 of 30 (365901)
11-25-2006 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
05-12-2006 12:56 PM


I was wondering how IDer's and Creo's handle fossils

You may want to see how they handle polystrate fossils...

Edited by scottness, : No reason given.


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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 15 of 30 (365902)
11-25-2006 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rob
11-25-2006 1:22 AM


Re: ... whatever
Christians do not say that law keeps people from being sociopaths.

Sure they do. I often see posts here from christians claiming that athiests have no moral guide and that if evolution is true then there is no reason to be good. I'll quote confidence from right before my post:

... we are left with people who like to rape, who like to hate/kill their neighbour. Ah, but if evolution is true, this is just natural.

See here is an alleged christian who thinks that without god people would be evil.

Only god can keep us from being sociopaths.

Really? I do just fine without him/her.

But we do not let Him

How do you prevent an omnipotent being from doing whatever he/she/it wants?

But you know better... don't you DrJones?

Well I don't live my life in fear of the wrath of an invisible sky bully if thats what you mean.

And all this is off-topic anyways, so I wont be responding to anything else along these lines.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
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