The evolution of religion?

Much of human life in all corners of the Earth, over vast periods of time, has believed in the supernatural. Whether it be spiritual ancestors, weather gods, suns gods, messiahs. Whether it be primitive Africans, native Americans, sacrificing Aztecs, Christians. Belief in the supernatural I believe ultimately developed throughout the world into what we would now call religion.Is religion then judged to be part of mans evolution? If mankind evolved in ways that guaranteed his survival, hunting, gathering, reproducing, what role did the belief in the supernatural and subsequently religion play in this evolution?Is it only now with the establishment of science that religion is seen as a tail no longer needed or used? Or am I way off course?ogonEdited by ogon, : made question more specific

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

"A pigeon is brought to a stable state of hunger by reducing it to 75 percent of its weight when well fed. It is put into an experimental cage for a few minutes each day. A food hopper attached to the cage may be swung into place so that the pigeon can eat from it. A solenoid and a timing relay hold the hopper in place for five sec. at each reinforcement.If a clock is now arranged to present the food hopper at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior, operant conditioning usually takes place. In six out of eight cases the resulting responses were so clearly defined that two observers could agree perfectly in counting instances. One bird was conditioned to turn counter-clockwise about the cage, making two or three turns between reinforcements. Another repeatedly thrust its head into one of the upper corners of the cage. A third developed a 'tossing' response, as if placing its head beneath an invisible bar and lifting it repeatedly. Two birds developed a pendulum motion of the head and body, in which the head was extended forward and swung from right to left with a sharp movement followed by a somewhat slower return. The body generally followed the movement and a few steps might be taken when it was extensive. Another bird was conditioned to make incomplete pecking or brushing movements directed toward but not touching the floor. None of these responses appeared in any noticeable strength during adaptation to the cage or until the food hopper was periodically presented. In the remaining two cases, conditioned responses were not clearly marked."--- B. F. Skinner, 'Superstition' in the Pigeon (emphasis in the original)Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Good ol' Skinner, the behavioral psychologist that placed his own kids in glass boxes, of Walden II utopia notoriety, and who trained pigeons to guide missiles to their targets (from inside) for the US army (the first "smart bombs"?). I would say the pigeons were trained to repeat motions they had been doing (randomly) between the hopper feedings.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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C'mon, you've got to admire the man who invented the pigeon-guided missile. So does he. Do you keep your kids in glass boxes, or some more conventional style of playpen?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Dang duplicate. What's with this board today?But as long as I'm retyping: the research of Moreau as well as Skinner may be of relevance here._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : duplicate.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

You've got to admire anyone who finds a use for pigeons at all.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Some similar previous threads:http://< !--UB EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief -->http://EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief -->EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief< !--UE-->
http://< !--UB EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? -->http://EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? -->EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?< !--UE--> And no two original beliefs are the same. On the other hand the ascetic "religious experience" is fairly universal. Thus if god(s) are true, then they are unknowable (deism), OR there are no god(s). We may be asking this question the wrong way. Religious belief could also be a side product of some other evolved behavior. In Message 105 I posted some thoughts in a different direction: Thus the drive to form a religion is based on instinctual behavior for group social species and (evolved or learned) codes of behavior, similar to many animal species we know. Thus you would haveLeader Person (A) has religious experience
Group (A) (with Person (A)) forms a religion around the experienceSuccessful formulations increase group bond and inter-individual behavior to the benefit of the group. The religions evolve over time to add elements not in the original vision, by leaders, for group control.Group (A) divides or mingle with non-religion group and form new groups with common basis allowing inter-group behavior to the benefit of the groups involved.Thus you end up with evolved religion, but the question of god(s) unresolved. I would say "with the establishment of rational thinking that religion ... etc". I think (personal opinion) that formal religions are no longer needed, and that they interfere with real spiritual growth or possibilities, because they are hindered by the dogma based on those added crowd control elements.{ABE}There is also some medical evidence that a spiritual attitude, independent of any specific religion, is beneficial to the overall health of the individual, and this would select for individuals that had spiritual\religious experiences.{/abe}Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : added

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Not to squabble, but I think there is at least one good use ... Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

You have to remember that religions are totally separate from the question of "Is there a GOD?"Religions, all religions, are human constructs. Like all human constructs, they do evolve. But that does not address the question of whether or not there is a GOD.If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any beliefs that It does not exist.If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of any beliefs that He does exist.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Possibly none. Just because we see religion all over the place doesn't mean that religion provides some adaptive benefit to humans. Tapeworms are adapted to live in our intestines, but provide absolutely no benefit to us for being there.Religion could be a similar parasite.

I have to admit it Doc, I just don't get this one?ogon

Could you explain what having a spiritual attitude involves and how does one then promote spiritual growth?ogon

Meditation, study of a wide variety of spiritual texts (expose self to different views), setting time aside for personal introspection. It is a personal journey, and no-one can tell you what your path is. Getting rid of dogma (walls) lets those paths go where they will.Enjoy.

The point is that when the pigeons were placed in a situation where their actions could not affect their environment, they adopted a set of entirely pointless rituals which they thought (insofar as a pigeon can be said to think, Skinner would turn in his grave) did effect their environment.We might compare this to such things as prayers for rain, sun dances, intercessionary prayers for the sick, and so forth (if these things do in fact serve no function).You may reply that humans are not as dumb as pigeons, and of course I agree, but we are just about as intuitively poor at knowing when there is and when there isn't evidence of a causal correlation when presented with statistical data.