Another "New" View of Creation

Please see Message 3. --Admin Edited by Admin, : Refer people to message 3.

This reads more like a statement of belief than a topic proposal for the creation/evolution debate. Some parts of your position sound somewhat similar to Intelligent Design, but asking "How we as intelligent beings are creating our own world?" is something completely different. Can you edit your proposal to make more clear what it is you would like to discuss and how it ties in to some aspect of the creation/evolution debate? If so, post a note here when you're done and I'll take another look.Minor nit: you left out the double spacing between paragraphs in the latter part of your post.Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Another view of creationOne night, we had a visitor at the Affinity Circle at our center who read some poetry about the creation of good and evil, light and darkness. When the young poet was through, he asked for some feedback, and in one of those 'inspirational moments' I responded. "My favorite creation story only has three words:
...It's still happening."Even though I never saw the young man again, the words have had significant impact on me and my views.It's still happening. Creation is a PROCESS, not a single act. This process, where intelligence creates more of itself, is a natural expression of itself. It is, in fact, an observable characteristic of intelligence, part of the very definition of intelligence. And we cannot separate intelligence from its creative process.And the process continues. With every tick of an atomic clock, the Universe is a new expression.Even in the few seconds that you’ve been reading this, there have been thousands of new cells created in your body. This is intelligence —written as DNA codewithin each of us expressing naturally. Oxygen has been transformed into energy within you, creating electrical impulses that have allowed you to read and understand the words written here. New stars are coming together, electron energy patterns in atoms are shifting depending on their energetic environment. New bacterial species are evolving out of old patterns of life.Creation is happening within the minds and experiences of humans as well. New music is being written and recorded. New products and processes are being discovered. New art is being dreamed in oil, acrylic, stone and video.What does it mean that creation is still happening? It means that, as conscious beings, we are part of it. The intelligence inherent within us is part of the creative process.There are two things that we cannot deny from the observable universe:
1) that there is some level of intelligence observable even in the smallest particles and
2) that there is an inherent creative impulse that increases as consciousness increases.This Universally Distributed Intelligence expresses as this manifest reality. The pattern of Intelligence, consistently expressing itself, is what we see AND is the act of seeing it at the same time.This view is not meant to step into the fray between creationists and science, but is a bridge between the two. This is not the pseudoscience of Intelligent Design, or the religion of science, but is the logical, observable center point, where we can SEE Intelligence at work in this moment, everywhere we look.(I personally believe in God, but not as the Tinkerer out there someplace in the sky who went AWOL after 6 days of work. I personally believe in this observable Creative Process, as a Principle that works now, as it always has. This eternal Principle, eternally expressing, is Life, is Love, is Intelligence and Beauty, which I might append as God but it is so much more than any story written for an adolescent human understanding.)This Creative Process is evolution in expression, the manifestation of continued response to new environments and new stimuli, in nature and in the human experience.The ultimate question therefore becomes, not what happened thousands or billions of years ago, but what is happening now? Since I cannot separate myself from the intelligence within and all around me, what part am I playing in this continuous process, as a conscious being? As a center of some intelligence in the Universe that itself is Intelligent, what am I creating?The Creative Process continues.

Thread copied here from the Another "New" View of Creation thread in the Intelligent Design forum.

Sorry to have to tell you this, but I think you are creating gibberish.Your post seems to have no necessary relation to the real world. It seems to be a mix of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo and thinly veiled religious belief masquerading as junk science, as it certainly doesn't seem to be able to reach any level.Perhaps if you rephrased some of your concepts with reference to empirical evidence rather than metaphysical imaginings it would mean more (to me, at least).(I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I have a low tolerance for the metaphysical, philosophy and other squishy subjects.)

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

I am inclined to agree, if you are going to offer a hypothesis for how the world works you need to provide empirical evidence for it and explain why your theory covers the existing evidence better than the current theories.

As others have previously stated, a lot of mumbo-jumbo.But I'll focus in on one thing: I would certainly deny that this is true. An intelligent grain of sand? I don't think so. Why do you think that such an intelligence is so undeniably obvious?MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Do better subtitle.

ah, well, then let me reconsider my audience here. and address some of the points, one by one, without addressing the personal biases.It looks to me that I need to define what I mean by "intelligence." For me, this is not limited to volition, but includes the observable, repeatable natural response of every thing in the Universe, down to atomic particles, yes, even in a grain of sand. The crystaline structure in a grain of sand, repeated billions of times on one beach alone, has enough intelligence to exist as that grain of sand, with the chemical bonds that formed eons ago, were chipped along weaker bonds and were washed up (or trucked to) the beach where they are at this moment. Each one of them responds to heat, vacuum, mechanical stress in the same way. Add some radiation and the atoms themselves change, in a predictable, measurable way, no matter whether that silica came from Mars or my back yard.Cells divide, not by volition, but by some inner, innate intelligence that responds to the environment. They change based on both the inner intelligence and the conditions surrounding them. Bacteria evolves and it also "learns" from other bacteria that have already undergone the transformation.Bodies heal themselves, based on inner patterns and the response to the conditions.Hence my statement that there is observable intelligence even in the smallest particles.And expression of intelligence is the Creative Process. This is happening now, as new stars form, as the pressure and heat and radiation create new chemical bonds. New expressions of life are happening as species evolve.The point in this is that the whole Universe is responding, now in this moment, based on inner repeatable patterns and the conditions it finds. This is intelligence.

Hi Will Seamus Ennis, and welcome to the fray.I wonder how much you have really studied this question, as I don't see anything spectacularly new here. Not knowing what the "Affinity Circle at our center" represents (is it a church or a community center?) I wonder how much depth you have in the various religions of the world. Indeed, especially as IDers have tried to shanghai this term and redefine it. Your following text doesn't really do much to explain what you mean, but what I gather is that there is an amorphous intelligence that permeates the universe and directs what happens. Pantheism - Wikipedia

quote:

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Pantheism (Greek: πάν (pan) = all and θεός (theos) = God, literally "God is all" -ism) is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing immanent God. In pantheism, the Universe (Nature) and God are considered equivalent and synonymous. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that God is better understood as an abstract principle representing natural law, existence, and the Universe (the sum total of all that was, is and shall be), rather than as an anthropomorphic entity.

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Varieties of pantheism

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This article distinguishes between three divergent groups of pantheists:

• Classical pantheism, which is expressed in the immanent God of Kabalistic Judaism, Hinduism, Animism, Monism, neopaganism, and the New Age, generally viewing God in either a personal or cosmic manner.
• Biblical pantheism, which is expressed in the writings of the Bible with the understanding of personification linguistics as a cultural communication idiom in Hebrew language. [Isa 55:12] [Acts 17:28] [Ps. 90:1]
  
• Naturalistic pantheism, based on the relatively recent views of Baruch Spinoza (who may have been influenced by Biblical pantheism) and John Toland (who coined the term "pantheism"), as well as contemporary influences.

... The division between the three strains of pantheism are not entirely clear in all situations, and remains a source of some controversy in pantheist circles. Classical pantheists generally accept the religious doctrine that there is a spiritual basis to all reality, while naturalistic pantheists generally do not and thus see the world in somewhat more naturalistic terms.

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We have one member here who has identified himself as a Spinoza Pantheist, iirc. It seems to me that you are describing Naturalistic pantheism.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Wow! Even though I never saw the young man at all I'm inspired by my own use of "Wow" just now. You've just defined intelligence as having an inability to not fall into a hole. Blind adherence to environment is not exactly one of the better definitions of intelligence. A really intelligent lamb would have the good sense to be a wolf every once in a while. As some of the personal biases likely include things like reason I'm thinking you should.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.

This has been known for centuries as "following the natural laws."To call this "intelligence" is a very poor choice of terms, particularly with creationists using the same term in a duplicitous manner to try to "wedge" their version of religion back into the schools in the guise of science.But if you want to go on from here, please define "intelligence" in a manner that shows how it differs from "natural laws."

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

I concur Coyote. Intelligence is a subjective term which requires an "intelligent" agent/entity which expresses this "intelligence".To say that sand, molecules and atoms expresses "intelligence" is inane and ridiculous. By doing so that everything is intelligent. And as Syndrome aka Buddy (Mr. Indredible's would-be sidekick) says in the move 'The Incredibles': "And when everyone's super (replace with the word 'intelligent')--no one will be."

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I'm not sure why I should separate intelligence from "natural laws". For me, they are synonymous.To RAZD and his/her intelligent and helpful point, I'm not just a pantheist, but a panENtheist, seeing that "God (aka intelligence) as all" and that God (aka intelligence) transcends all, both at the same time.This manifest Universe is a continuing expression of an immanent and transcendent Intelligence that exists at all levels. Not Intelligent Design that separates the Creator from the created, but here now, still creating, still using the intelligence that exists within natural law. At the same time, the intelligence that exists within us, as free agents, to create as we choose, is part of the continuing process.We are the ones creating conflict, not some Tinker God out there. We are the ones creating the changes in the environment, as a direct cause and effect relationship, not as "punishment" but as an expression of natural law.The amount of volitional intelligence that we exhibit is not limited to a programmed response, but is itself evolving as we learn more of this cause/effect relationship. that is the real point here.Y'all have a nice day, y'hear.

Hi again, Will Seamus Ennis. His, or did you not recognize the portrait icon as me? Ah, perhaps closer to transtheism:

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Transtheistic is a term coined by philosopher Paul Tillich or Indologist Heinrich Zimmer, referring to a system of thought or religious philosophy which transcends theism, and is thus neither theistic nor atheistic.[1]

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Zimmer applies the term to the theological system of Jainism, which is theistic in the limited sense that the gods exist, but become immaterial as they are transcended by moksha (that is, a system which is not non-theistic, but in which the gods are not the highest spiritual instance). Zimmer (1953, p. 182) uses the term to describe the position of the Tirthankaras having passed "beyond the godly governors of the natural order".

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The term has more recently also been applied to Buddhism,[2] Advaita Vedanta[3] and the Bhakti movement.[4].

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Nathan Katz in Buddhist and Western Philosophy (1981, p. 446) points out that the term "transpolytheistic" would be more accurate, since it entails that the polytheistic gods are not denied or rejected even after the development of a notion of the Absolute that transcends them, ...

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Enjoy the journey of discovery.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

For me chocolate ice cream is white and flavored with vanilla.For me the speed of a car is measured in calcium acetate.For me yellow is the tensile strength of oxygen.For me Rasputin is a Bolivian folk dance.How is one supposed to have meaning if one can define anything as it pleases them to do?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.