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Author Topic:   The power of accumulation in evolution is common sense!
Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 53 (531967)
10-20-2009 5:30 PM


Probably the most common theme in the evolution vs. creation debate is the creationist argument that biological systems and units are too complex to have arisen by chance. A specific example argument along this line is how speciation is possible. The creationist would argue that the first rat must have evolved into the rat miraculously at the same time as another creature evolved into the rat in order for them to reproduce more rats. Another specific example along this line is the rise of specific structures like the eye and the wing. The creationist would argue that something like the eye would have required all the necessary components to assemble at the same time in order for the eye to exist. Both cases show a gross ignorance of the power of accumulation.

Why do creationists have such trouble understanding the concept of accumulation? It is literally in our faces every second of everyday of our lives.

Let's look at John Doe's life. John Doe didn't simply poof right into his mother's womb. He started out as a single cell. His physical being came into existence inside his mother's womb through the accumulation of cells through mitosis. After he was born, the knowledge of talking, walking, and eating didn't simply poof into his mind. He learned how to do those things one step at a time and through the power of accumulation he became a walking and talking toddler. As he grew up, his material possessions didn't simply poof into existence. Through time, his possessions accumulated. As he matured and pursued a career in engineering, the academic and life experiences required to go into this field didn't simply poof into existence. Rather, they accumulated through years of schooling and social interaction. He then got married and started a family of his own. His eventual family of 5 children didn't simply poof into existence. Rather, they came one by one, each came into existence through the same process as John did when he was in his mother's womb.

As a family of 7, they one day decided to take a vacation. They flew from Illinois to Virginia, took a train to Florida, took a bus to Miami, drove a rented car down to the Keys, walked to a ship yard, took a boat to half a mile out from an island, and swam the rest of the way to their vacation island. They got to the island through the power of accumulation of distance. They didn't simply decide to take a vacation on that island and poof their way there. Instead, they gained the distance inch by inch every step of the way. The means to which they took didn't simply poof into existence. The plane they flew in, the train and bus they rode in, the car they drove in, the shoes they walked in, the boat they rode in, and the flippers they swam with all were assembled piece by piece, all accumulated their parts into their whole.

By now, you should have the idea that practically everything in a person's life is gained through the power of accumulation. This nation's infrastructure didn't simply poof into existence. Every building, every house, every street, every sewer system, and every water pipe were all assembled piece by piece until they accumulated to what we have now. This nation's 350 million citizens didn't simply poof into existence. Instead, they arrived here through either immigration of natural birth until they accumulated to their number today.

Every system and every unit within that system that one can possibly fathom came about through the power of accumulation. Why on Earth, then, do creationists insist that the biological systems of the planet and the individual components of these systems were magically poofed into existence? Why do creationists have such trouble understanding the power of accumulation when it comes to biological diversity when everything else that we can directly observe came about through the power of accumulation?

PS - Ned the Nose's alter-ego's question of where to put this thread will not simply poof into existence. Rather, the question will come about through accumulating letters from the alphabet and arranged in a specific way. My answer of "where ever you think is best" will not simply poof into existence. Instead, the sentence will come about through the power of accumulation by me typing each letter at a time until a proper sentence is assembled.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by slevesque, posted 10-20-2009 7:30 PM Taz has responded
 Message 38 by Stagamancer, posted 01-08-2010 3:57 PM Taz has responded

AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 53 (531984)
10-20-2009 6:42 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Thread Name Not Available thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2748 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 3 of 53 (531993)
10-20-2009 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
10-20-2009 5:30 PM


Conclusion: ... and so everything comes about by accumulation.

Oh wait, where did you ever prove that again ? I must've missed it in your text, Strawboy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 10-20-2009 5:30 PM Taz has responded

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 53 (531996)
10-20-2009 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by slevesque
10-20-2009 7:30 PM


slevesque writes:

Conclusion: ... and so everything comes about by accumulation.

Oh wait, where did you ever prove that again ? I must've missed it in your text, Strawboy


That's your conclusion, not mine.
This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2748 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 5 of 53 (532032)
10-20-2009 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
10-20-2009 7:33 PM


Every system and every unit within that system that one can possibly fathom came about through the power of accumulation. Why on Earth, then, do creationists insist that the biological systems of the planet and the individual components of these systems were magically poofed into existence? Why do creationists have such trouble understanding the power of accumulation when it comes to biological diversity when everything else that we can directly observe came about through the power of accumulation?

This is from your OP. How does this not reflect the conclusion I wrote ? I think I just wrote explicitly and briefly what you were trying to convey.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 10-20-2009 7:33 PM Taz has responded

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 Message 6 by Taz, posted 10-21-2009 12:02 AM slevesque has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 53 (532044)
10-21-2009 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by slevesque
10-20-2009 10:34 PM


Classic misinterpretation of what I said.

me writes:

Every system and every unit within that system that one can possibly fathom came about through the power of accumulation. Why on Earth, then, do creationists insist that the biological systems of the planet and the individual components of these systems were magically poofed into existence? Why do creationists have such trouble understanding the power of accumulation when it comes to biological diversity when everything else that we can directly observe came about through the power of accumulation?


There is a big difference between 'everything' and 'one can possibly fathom'. Admittedly, I sloppily used "everything else" (in blue) but the general idea should have been clear.

Also, the issue isn't about "everything comes about by accumulation". The issue is why do creationists have trouble understanding the concept of accumulation in biological evolution when they literally live with systems that came about through accumulation?

Do you enjoy lying? Because by trying to divert attention to an insignificant portion of my post, you effectively just lied to the more gullible readers.


This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2748 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 7 of 53 (532046)
10-21-2009 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
10-21-2009 12:02 AM


I don't considered my comments were insignificant, principally because if your post gave me that impression (that everything comes about through accumulation), than it probably gace the same impression to others. And so the clarification was needed.

AbE In any case, I still consider your claim to be a strawman. You use the term 'creationist' in a very englobing manner, as if they all didn't understand acumulation. I would be very surprised if even 1% of creationist would bring up the sort of reasoning you assigned to them (the rats example, etc.)

Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.


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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 8 of 53 (542110)
01-07-2010 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
10-21-2009 12:02 AM


Why do creationists have such trouble understanding the power of accumulation when it comes to biological diversity when everything else that we can directly observe came about through the power of accumulation?

Because your opinion is in opposition to what we see.

For example: If you take a garden hose and lay it on the ground with a trickle of water.....the flow will snake back and forth wider and wider and wider.

No matter how long, it will not create a great crack like the grand canyon.

With layers and layer and layers, laid over long times, the toplayers will be soft and the bottom, well hard as rock.

But the grand canyon? All layers of hard rock cut steep and deep.....as if all the layers were of the same hardness.

Just one example of slow accululation.....not.

.


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 Message 6 by Taz, posted 10-21-2009 12:02 AM Taz has responded

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 Message 9 by Taz, posted 01-07-2010 7:03 PM Sky-Writing has responded
 Message 10 by Coragyps, posted 01-07-2010 7:23 PM Sky-Writing has responded
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 53 (542121)
01-07-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 5:48 PM


Sky writes:

Because your opinion is in opposition to what we see.


Ok, have you seen god poof everything into existence?

Added by edit.

Have you seen god poof anything at all into existence?

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


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 Message 8 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 5:48 PM Sky-Writing has responded

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 10 of 53 (542124)
01-07-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 5:48 PM


But the grand canyon? All layers of hard rock cut steep and deep.....as if all the layers were of the same hardness.

You've never looked at a picture of the Grand Canyon? You've obviously never read one of the excellent threads here at EvC about the variety of formations visible there......and yes, the accumulated gradually.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 11 of 53 (542135)
01-07-2010 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
01-07-2010 7:03 PM


Have you seen god poof anything at all into existence?

Let's just say I know the exact procedure to get exactly what I need to have, and in most cases, the instant I ask. Poof. And it's no secret. Job covers the procedure.

Ok. I'll tell it.
If you pray long enough, and hard enough, God will tell you when to stop and just LET it go. In that next instant, He will POOF what you need in front of you. You will have no doubt it was an answer.

To the observer, they see nothing, because they don't know that your thought process was at work. But when that moment of asking and recieving comes, it's as clear as a bell.

Edited by -Sky-, : the reveal

Edited by -Sky-, : No reason given.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 12 of 53 (542137)
01-07-2010 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 8:05 PM


For a second, I thought you were an honest poster.

Then I read your posts. This is the science section of the forum, dude. All of your posts have been devoid of any actual substance. You've done nothing but preach.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


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 Message 11 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 8:05 PM Sky-Writing has responded

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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 13 of 53 (542155)
01-07-2010 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by hooah212002
01-07-2010 8:24 PM


For a second, I thought you were an honest poster. Then I read your posts. This is the science section of the forum, dude. All of your posts have been devoid of any actual substance.

My answer to the question about "Poofing something into existence" was just about as reproducible and formal and scientific as you can get.

.....You've done nothing but preach.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


ROFLOL!!

Edited by -Sky-, : No reason given.


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 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 8:24 PM hooah212002 has responded

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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 14 of 53 (542156)
01-07-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
01-07-2010 7:23 PM


You've never looked at a picture of the Grand Canyon? You've obviously never read one of the excellent threads here at EvC about the variety of formations visible there......and yes, the accumulated gradually.

I've taken pictures on the south canyon jeep tour, but didn't see any threads to read. I compare the structures to white water trips I've been on and to Mt. St. Hellens. And what the Creation Kooks say is true. There is an almost exact replica of the Grand Canyon. The same structures, angles, the same little trickle in the bottom. Only created in weeks.


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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2708 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 15 of 53 (542160)
01-08-2010 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 11:48 PM


There is an almost exact replica of the Grand Canyon.

Evidence please. Be it here or a new thread I would just love to see you even try to pull this one off. Pictures would be lovely, a general understanding of geology would be spectacular.


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