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Author Topic:   An inconvenient truth.... or lie?
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 191 (538234)
12-04-2009 5:33 PM


What has been dubbed as "Climate-Gate" was first sparked when an unknown assailant, or assailants, hacked the servers of the Climate Research Unit and disseminated material from reputable climatological sources stating that the evidence of anthropogenic global warming is either inconclusive, exaggerated, or completely fabricated.

What makes this especially controversial is the fact that the world is now so invested and sold on the notion that humans are causing global warming that world policies like the Kyoto Protocol are founded upon them. Entire political parties are wrapped up in the notion and have profited off the pitch.

Even on commercials ranging from laundry detergent to gasoline, the "go green" mantra is now completely ingrained in the psyche of all Westerners. We have heard that "the science is in, the debate is over," yet large scientific dissent has been raised for decades now, which is only stifled by the allegation that only "fringe" scientists are skeptical of global warming. Some have even called it the greatest scientific hoax of all time. If proven conclusively true, it will certainly be one of the most historic scandals of the 21st century.

Those in favor of anthropogenic global warming are saying that the material in question is completely taken out of context and is nothing more than a clever smear campaign.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Message 2 of 191 (538241)
12-04-2009 6:13 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the An inconvenient truth.... or lie? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 191 (538256)
12-04-2009 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-04-2009 5:33 PM


Huge Scientific Scandal
Hi Hyrogryphx. Thanks for initiating the pertinent topic.
the greatest scientific hoax ever . How many other scandals which affect who get's peer reviews, huge $$ grants and political favors etc. So much for the alleged need for carbon taxes and cap & trade legislation.

I apologize for the length of the exerpt from the link but it cites other links pertaining to pertinent details of the scandals

Dr. Don Easterbrook (http://tinyurl.com/yav3omyl) recently pointed out such practices were routinely violated at the CRU. See here (http://tinyurl.com/ybvhabb) and here (http://tinyurl.com/yav3omy)

Easterbrook points out that “legitimate scientists do not doctor data, delete data they don’t like, hide data they don’t want seen, hijack the peer review process, personally attack other scientists whose views differ from theirs, send fraudulent data to the IPCC that is used to perpetuate the greatest hoax in the history science, provide false data to further legislation on climate change that will result in huge profits for corrupt lobbyists and politicians, and tell outright lies about scientific data”. All of these unprofessional practices were revealed in the disclosed email and documents.

The CRU email fallout during the week of Nov. 23, spread rapidly. Many of these findings have been listed at ecotretas (http://tinyurl.com/ye95k92) as well as at Climate Depot (http://www.climatedepot.com/).

Listed at ecotretas (http://tinyurl.com/ye95k92) are the following categories of CRU transgressions: Using the wrong data and practices, fixing the data, deleting the data, wrong-doing, hiding information, peer-review interference, and questionable financial practices. These are not the habits and practices of scientific and engineering professionals.

The release of the CRU emails and documents indicates a massive global warming scandal had been operating at the CRU and elsewhere for nearly 2 decades. The purpose of all the scandal was apparently to give a scientific patina to global warming and the presumptive cause of it all, CO2 emitted from the developed nations (code word for the United States).

The purpose of the IPCC and the CRU was never to determine a better understanding of how our climate works. It was never to identify all of the forces at work affecting the climate, their magnitudes, their signs-positive or negative, their interactions and their variations, all of which drive our climate, which in turn would make the developed nations the source of all damages done in the 3rd world, which in turn would make the case for restitution to these nations for many trillions of dollars.
It cannot be stressed too strongly that the people involved with this CRU scandal are very big, powerful, and influential people from the CRU and the US. They provide scientific cover for some of the largest and most costly attacks on the United States. The concept of limiting CO2 emissions from American sources is a ruse in light of the fact that the hypothesis that man-made CO2 is causing global warming remains unproven. There is absolutely no need for either carbon taxes or cap and trade legislation.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2195 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 191 (538267)
12-05-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-04-2009 5:33 PM


What has been dubbed as "Climate-Gate" was first sparked when an unknown assailant, or assailants, hacked the servers of the Climate Research Unit and disseminated material from reputable climatological sources stating that the evidence of anthropogenic global warming is either inconclusive, exaggerated, or completely fabricated.

What material? Can you link to it? Forgive me if I don't a Faux News clip as evidence. If it makes you feel any better I would equally dismiss a news clip from other sources as TV news tends to be pretty awful at covering the actually facts of the story.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1575 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 5 of 191 (538268)
12-05-2009 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
12-04-2009 9:57 PM


Re: Huge Scientific Scandal
Hey Buzsaw, since you're interested in this subject, would you like to post specific quotes from these emails so we can discuss them? The quotes you have provided are opinions of anti-global warming people. It's like me saying christians are lying sons of bitches and then people started quoting me as proof that christians are in fact liars.

Provide the quotes directly from the emails here and we can discuss about them.


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 6 of 191 (538269)
12-05-2009 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
12-05-2009 12:06 AM


Global warming is real!
Global warming is real, and it started about 15,000 years ago. Otherwise we'd still in an ice age.

Since then sea levels have risen about 400-430 feet.

A little more warming won't be too much of a problem. It would actually help most of the industrialized northern hemisphere.

Global cooling or another ice age would be a real problem. Imagine 2-3 miles of ice stacked up all along the Canadian border and the northern US, with all of the climate zones shifted proportionately south. As in way south!

Given the current status of the climate research, we can't be sure which way we're headed. The research has been hijacked by zealots out to confirm their chosen beliefs, as these recent hacks have shown.

When we're betting trillions of dollars we really do need accurate data. And we need fewer zealots masquerading as scientists.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 7 of 191 (538272)
12-05-2009 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
12-05-2009 12:24 AM


Re: Global warming is real!
While a much longer post would be required to go into the facts of global climate change, let me just point one thing out. Global warming (and not much of it) can melt large chunks of the Greenland ice mass (already happening) and that flood of colder water would then change the course of the warm water currents from the equator to the North Atlantic (inevitably) and thus drop the temperature of the entire North Atlantic sufficiently to kick Europe into a deep freeze (not a good thing). Just one likely scenario.

I tend to think that the folks at Woods Hole know that they're talking about.


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Son
Member (Idle past 2113 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(1)
Message 8 of 191 (538275)
12-05-2009 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
12-04-2009 5:33 PM


Whereas GW may or may not be a real concern, I just can't see the use of the debate in practical terms. In my mind, the fact that carbon ressources are by their nature limited (and that we may be approaching Peak Oil or even past it) trumps everything else. Moreover, knowing that most nuclear powers don't have the necessary oil in their own ground to exploit at a sufficient rate to make their oil dependent economy works should be a concern to everyone regardless of your party or country.
Link for Peak Oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

You also have to keep in mind that what our economies need is not exactly oil, but cheap oil (everyone remembers 150$/oil barrel I think so I don't really need to develop). Meaning that the tar sands of Canada and shale oil in the USA are very expensive alternatives and not viable to make the economy works. It also appears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands in production) that they are cutting oil production in the tar sands as a result of the fall of oil price indicating that the price of exploiting those new sources would put a high floor on the price of oil.

It's one of the reasons I think we should be getting out of oil as fast as possible as we don't know how much time it would take to transition from a carbon dependant economy to one that isn't. A failure to do so would spawn conflicts that would do far more harm than any damage Global Warming could do.

Americans should have an added reason not to consume oil: lots of it finance terrorists activities or at least suspicious activities that aren't in their best interests (e.g: Middle East). Their dependency on oil also makes them weaker when negotiating with oil exporting countries, something I thought libertarians and conservatives would be most concerned about.

In light of those problems, I would think GW as an interesting subject of climate study but the problems linked with the actual dependency on oil of our economies makes GW of little practical importance when making political decisions on whether we should get off of oil or not.

Edited by Son, : No reason given.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 9 of 191 (538285)
12-05-2009 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
12-05-2009 12:06 AM


double post

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 191 (538286)
12-05-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
12-05-2009 12:06 AM


Can you link to it? Forgive me if I don't a Faux News clip as evidence. If it makes you feel any better I would equally dismiss a news clip from other sources as TV news tends to be pretty awful at covering the actually facts of the story.

Media is media, seems to me. In any case, here you are


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 191 (538288)
12-05-2009 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
12-05-2009 12:24 AM


Re: Global warming is real!
Global warming is real, and it started about 15,000 years ago. Otherwise we'd still in an ice age.

There is little dispute that the earth's climate is warming. The dispute is over the cause. You seem to think the data points to a natural cycle but others, in almost religious fervor, believe that mankind and his industrial ways are the sole contributors of the planet's demise.

As you said, it's now difficult to actually find out what direction were headed.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Peg
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


(1)
Message 12 of 191 (538291)
12-05-2009 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
12-05-2009 7:54 AM


Re: Global warming is real!
Our activity does have an effect on the atmosphere, that was adequately discovered when the areosole cans, containing CFC's, we produced caused a gaping hole in the Ozone layer over australia

i think we can be fairly certain that our activity can and does affect the atmosphere

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 13 of 191 (538292)
12-05-2009 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Son
12-05-2009 4:52 AM


Fiction and Fact
Whereas GW may or may not be a real concern

Climate change is a legitimate concern and it should always be so. The earth has gone through series of cooling and warming periods that had catastrophic consequences to organisms adapted to both climates. That mega-fauna and most dinosaurs are gone could be due to Ice Ages. That Smilodon and Mastodon are no longer here could be attributed to the end of the Ice Age. Being that humans are organisms as well, climate affects us just as much.

the fact that carbon ressources are by their nature limited (and that we may be approaching Peak Oil or even past it) trumps everything else.

I agree completely. I agree that we should be looking away from fossil fuels, not only because its inevitable depletion, but pollution is real. Carcinogens in the air is real and it is legitimately not good for organisms.

The problem that I have is that some people have misused and manipulated the data to spawn an hysteria. The prophets of such doomsday scenario's have exploited the situation and profited generously on a false premise and injected the world with guilt for the Industrial Era, which, by the way, has saved billions of more lives in comparison.

The other day I took the kids to see one of the new 3-D movies out (as 3-D movies have become popularized again). Near the exit of the theater are recycling dispensary for the 3-D glasses. The wording is something the effect of, "Go green and be kind to our planet and recycle your glasses." Oh, please... Yes, lets pretend for one fucking second that your concern for recycling is in the interest of the planet rather than the obvious reason which is recycling of the glasses so that you can reuse them.

Americans should have an added reason not to consume oil: lots of it finance terrorists activities or at least suspicious activities that aren't in their best interests (e.g: Middle East). Their dependency on oil also makes them weaker when negotiating with oil exporting countries, something I thought libertarians and conservatives would be most concerned about.

Some conservatives for years have hidden or minimized the technology to go away from oil. Why? Because they were or knew oil barons and are on the Big Oil payroll. We could have shifted away from oil years ago, or at least started to make that transition away from oil. But it was suppressed.

The dependency on oil, especially foreign oil, is a big problem. The US should never have been so dependent on foreign oil. That's just one more reason why we should shift away from it.

I guess the point I am trying to make in general is that special interests groups exist to subvert and to dominate. But it seems especially sinister and disgusting when it is done under the pretext of "saving the planet."

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 191 (538294)
12-05-2009 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
12-05-2009 7:43 AM


The UK Telegraph cite always stops my computer from functioning adequately whether I try to access it from the link or from Google search. It brings up a warning box and it's difficult to close etc. Has anyone else had this problem or is it my computer? Thanks

Perhaps some malicious folks who don't like the damning facts relative to sectors of conventional science's tenacious hold on the science fora and peer review bully pulpits etc to be aired are bugging up medias who report objectively.

BTW, I have often cited the clear implications in Biblical prophecies that global warming will happen upon the planet in the end time of the Gentile empires but according to Revelation 16, the cause will be mostly from the sun.

Of course we all know that plants love and thrive on carbon dioxide. I've noticed this in my own acerage in upstate NY. It's becoming more of a jungle over the decades. I clear out areas and a couple of years later I need a machetti to get through.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1385 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 15 of 191 (538296)
12-05-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
12-05-2009 7:54 AM


Re: Global warming is real!
The CO2 climatic cycle normally has naturally reoccurring peaks and values, however, since the industrial revolution the level of CO2 has continue to rise higher than this naturally reoccurring atmpspheric CO2 cycle, as the below graph depicts:


(Data sources: Petit et al. 1999; Keeling and Whorf 2004; GLOBALVIEW-CO2 2007)

Also certain atmospheric emmissions contain isotopes that are only found in human enduced emmissions. The increase of other greenhouse gasses present in the atmosphere due to human related activity (both agricultural and industrial) are also indicated below:

This is a quick summary but the rapid increase in average global temperature outside the natural climatic cycle and the melting of the polar ice and other glacial areas around the world, along with the increase in human induced greenhouse gases in the atmospher are enough of an indicator that something is terrible awry.

I agree though that the real question though is how much of this global warming is caused by the natural cylical rythym of climatic change caused by natural causes and how much is induced by human activity? However are we going to wait until human-induced climatic change reaches an impass before we take actions to curb our effect on this climatic change?


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


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