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Author Topic:   How many churches are necessary?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 65 (540182)
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


So, while making my normal drive to take the kids to school the other morning, I took note of the number of churches I saw. Mind you, my town is rather small. population: 8,000 as of July last year. here is a map, courtesy of google, of all the churches in town. (can't upload image to photobucket, work won't allow it.)

Suffice to say, why is there a necessity for soooo frikkin many churches, all reading the same book? Is there that much confusion as to what jesus said? Is there that much confusion as to what you are supposed to do to please god? Would not just one church be sufficient?


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


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Message 2 of 65 (540275)
12-23-2009 8:33 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the How many churches are necessary? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2927 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 3 of 65 (540377)
12-24-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


Ok so since nobody is paying attention to your thread, I'll help you.

I'll start by saying that this is very impressive. That many churches in a town of 8000 ????

I live in a town of 25 000 and we have one church (+ a lot of empty catholic churches.) And there are maybe 7-8 churches overall in my region of 225 000 people.

What I am asking myself is is your situation the norm in america ?

And also, does it really change anything at all ? I mean, the muslims are all unified in their doctrinal beliefs and I don't think you give them any more or less possibility of having the truth then the christians ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 12-22-2009 3:45 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 12-24-2009 2:41 PM slevesque has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 65 (540378)
12-24-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by slevesque
12-24-2009 2:33 PM


What I am asking myself is is your situation the norm in america ?

The town I grew up in (of approximately the same size) had a similar number of churches.

And also, does it really change anything at all?

What should it change?

I mean, the muslims are all unified in their doctrinal beliefs{snip}

Are you certain about that? I think you may want to brush up on your knowledge of Islam. Or are you saying ALL muslims are radical fanatics like the ones blowing themselves up for Allah?

{snip}I don't think you give them any more or less possibility of having the truth then the christians ...

You're right, I don't. But I don't live in a muslim neighbourhood so I can't make note of how many different Muslim denomonations/churches there are, can I?

My main point, which I think I made in the OP, was: why the need for so many denomonations? Each one of you makes the claim to know "the truth" but hardly any of you agree on the finer points, the nitty gritty.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 2:33 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 3:57 PM hooah212002 has responded
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2927 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 5 of 65 (540391)
12-24-2009 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
12-24-2009 2:41 PM


What should it change?

Well, isn't the implied question of your OP ''If the Bible is true, why are their so many different denominations about what it says ?''

Hence my question; Does it change anything at all ? If the truth of the Bible (or any religious book)) relies on how many different doctrinal opinions about it, then I guess the Bible is near the very bottom, and the Quran at the very top.

But of course, my opinion is that it does not change anything. Their could be a gazillion different opinions about the Bible, and it could still be true. And their could be only one concensus and still be wrong.

Are you certain about that? I think you may want to brush up on your knowledge of Islam. Or are you saying ALL muslims are radical fanatics like the ones blowing themselves up for Allah?

That's why I specified doctrinal beliefs, and not solely beliefs. Muslims all have pretty much the same doctrinal beliefs, but they apply them differently.

It is a bit similar then the christians who say:''Yess the Bible teaches against homosexual practice, but it was in a different culture and since the culture changed, so should the Bible's teaching about homosexuality''. They agree on what the Bible doctrinally teaches, but decide not to apply it.

Same thing happens for liberal muslims, but on a bigger scale. They agree on what the Quran teaches doctrinally, but decide not to apply it because ''the society has evolved''.

Of course, this is a big generalization on my part, and there may be exceptions to this. Or I could be wrong about liberal muslims (I don't live in a muslim neighbourhood either).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 6 of 65 (540393)
12-24-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by slevesque
12-24-2009 3:57 PM


Well, isn't the implied question of your OP ''If the Bible is true, why are their so many different denominations about what it says ?''

Somewhat, but not quite. My question is: why are there so many different viewpoints about the same book, each one of you saying it is "the truth". if it really is "the truth", and only one god said it, what gives?

Hence my question; Does it change anything at all ? If the truth of the Bible (or any religious book)) relies on how many different doctrinal opinions about it, then I guess the Bible is near the very bottom, and the Quran at the very top.

If you say so. I am not very versed in the different readings of the Quran, but I don't think ALL muslims read it the same. Are you saying ALL muslims are extremists?

But of course, my opinion is that it does not change anything. Their could be a gazillion different opinions about the Bible, and it could still be true. And their could be only one concensus and still be wrong.

But each denomonation say there version is "the truth". Theydon't say "well, this is MY opinion on what the bible means".

Are you certain about that? I think you may want to brush up on your knowledge of Islam. Or are you saying ALL muslims are radical fanatics like the ones blowing themselves up for Allah?

That's why I specified doctrinal beliefs, and not solely beliefs. Muslims all have pretty much the same doctrinal beliefs, but they apply them differently.

It is a bit similar then the christians who say:''Yess the Bible teaches against homosexual practice, but it was in a different culture and since the culture changed, so should the Bible's teaching about homosexuality''. They agree on what the Bible doctrinally teaches, but decide not to apply it.

Same thing happens for liberal muslims, but on a bigger scale. They agree on what the Quran teaches doctrinally, but decide not to apply it because ''the society has evolved''.

Of course, this is a big generalization on my part, and there may be exceptions to this. Or I could be wrong about liberal muslims (I don't live in a muslim neighbourhood either).

This is pretty much my point. christianity does the same thing. All the while each group drilling home that what that particular group teaches is "THE truth".

If the bible is open for opinion, that opens the door to question god's meaning. Is that what you are implying?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 3:57 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 4:31 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2927 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 7 of 65 (540398)
12-24-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by hooah212002
12-24-2009 4:12 PM


If you say so. I am not very versed in the different readings of the Quran, but I don't think ALL muslims read it the same. Are you saying ALL muslims are extremists?

I think they all believe in the same doctrines, but they don't all apply them for diverse reasons (such as society has evolved, etc.)

But I can say that the muslim religion is much, much, much more unified then the christians. And even if their were 2 or 3 different iinterpretations of the Quran, I wouldn't consider that a lot considering they are over a billion believers if I remember correctly.

But each denomonation say there version is "the truth". Theydon't say "well, this is MY opinion on what the bible means".

...

This is pretty much my point. christianity does the same thing. All the while each group drilling home that what that particular group teaches is "THE truth".

Well I don't know to what extent you consider someone a christian. Are jehovah's witness part of it in your opinion ? Or Mormons ?

Because those two, for example, don't have the same Bible. They have a whole different traduction of it. So well it's normal that they don't interpret it the same way, since it isn't the same book.

But I think there is a bit of a bad suppositions about the Bible, which is that it should be easy to read, and that it's teaching should be ever so obvious to everyone. But it isn't really that easy.

I mean, the core message is pretty easy and straightforward, and I think many churches all interpret it the same way (I would hope all). I'm talking about the whole salvation, sin etc, and Jesus dying for us etc.

But some other thing are quite complicated. And although they are sometimes very minor things, this is where christians tend to gather with those who think the same.

If the bible is open for opinion, that opens the door to question god's meaning. Is that what you are implying?

There is one biblical truth, in other words, the author had one meaning in mind when writing it. But that doesn't stop people from having different opinions.

It a bit like a fossilized bone. One bone, but people can still have two, three or more theories about it's history. That doesn't hange the fact that there is only one actual history to the bone.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 8 of 65 (540400)
12-24-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by slevesque
12-24-2009 4:31 PM


Well I don't know to what extent you consider someone a christian.

So who (besides this god fella, of course) gets to decide who are the real christians? You and iano both seem to be in this same crowd of deciding who gets to be a "real" christian and who's not.

There was another thread where peg pointed out to two different versions of the bible having two different words in the same passage. the different word changed practically the whole meaning of the passage.

But some other thing are quite complicated. And although they are sometimes very minor things, this is where christians tend to gather with those who think the same.

but alot of the time, they are BIG details. Such as the trinity. It's kind of a big deal what forms YOUR god takes, isn't it? is jesus just a man? Is he god? is he god's son? Almost all of you say something different. ICANT has a different take on creationism than damn near the lot of you. Some say 6 literal days, some says 6 figurative days.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 4:31 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by slevesque, posted 12-26-2009 11:36 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1743 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 65 (540433)
12-25-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


It's Not About the Book
It's more about the doctrine or traditions based on the book. Like a movie based on a true story.

New churches spring up because of splits in the congregation. Sometimes the splits aren't even doctrinal or biblical differences. I've seen groups of people leave a church because the new paster didn't want to stand behind the podium.

A new pastor brings a new way of doing things and a small group doesn't like it. They start a new church so they can do things their way.

A "church" decides that women who wear shorts at home can't teach Sunday School. (The pastor (a man) doesn't believe women should wear slacks, jeans, or shorts.) Needless to say a group left and started their own church.

There's also different politics between the denominations.

I'd say it isn't so much about the book and what it says, it is more about the expression of one's belief that causes so many churches to spring up.

When it comes to the business of the church, Christians don't always practice what they preach.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6258
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 10 of 65 (540447)
12-25-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


Re: Churches
Hi hooah,

hooah writes:

So, while making my normal drive to take the kids to school the other morning, I took note of the number of churches I saw. Mind you, my town is rather small. population: 8,000 as of July last year. here is a map, courtesy of google, of all the churches in town. (can't upload image to photobucket, work won't allow it.)

First things first.

You did not pass by a church.

A church is a called out assembly for a specific reason.

You passed by many buildings that the church meets in.

Now to your question, "How many churches are necessary"?

If Jesus is who He said He was then there is only one Church.
He said I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

If it is "my Church" as He claimed it can only be one.

But there can be many called out assemblies, who are doing His work.

So there are only two churches.

The Church that Jesus built.

AND

Those that pretend to be the church that Jesus built.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 65 (540461)
12-25-2009 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


Why there are so many churches
Suffice to say, why is there a necessity for soooo frikkin many churches, all reading the same book? Is there that much confusion as to what jesus said? Is there that much confusion as to what you are supposed to do to please god? Would not just one church be sufficient?

Various churches often do not agree with certain interpretations of the bible, which is why there are various denominations.

If we read the letter written by Thomas Jefferson that inspired the phrase and belief of the separation of church and state, the spirit of that letter was in a time of competing denominations. Many fears arose that the United States government would take an official stance on Christianity, thus nullifying one large reason for seceding with England and its Church of England.

In an attempt to assuage those concerns, he wrote that the government should take a neutral approach.

Protestants generally do not believe in a papacy of men acting as vicars of Christ. There is no hierarchy to rule them, so they have all branched off on their own. Either congregation agrees with the interpretation or they find a new church.

That is why there are so many churches in America.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2927 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 12 of 65 (540568)
12-26-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
12-24-2009 4:51 PM


Sorry couldn't answer earlier.

So who (besides this god fella, of course) gets to decide who are the real christians? You and iano both seem to be in this same crowd of deciding who gets to be a "real" christian and who's not.

That wasn't really what I wanted to say. I was just asking who you considered when using the word ''christian'' ... If you included jehovah's witness, then I would consider them in my answer. Same for Mormons, etc

but alot of the time, they are BIG details. Such as the trinity. It's kind of a big deal what forms YOUR god takes, isn't it? is jesus just a man? Is he god? is he god's son? Almost all of you say something different. ICANT has a different take on creationism than damn near the lot of you. Some say 6 literal days, some says 6 figurative days.

Well I said sometimes easy, sometimes minor. This doesn't mean there are big issues that are difficult to resolve. The trinity is one such thing.

And of course, on creation, there are a gazillion new interpretation since the last 100 years. BUt before that, there was one interpretation (the literal day one) and pretty much everyone interpreted it this way. (Even St-Augustine which was a bit excentric in his view of genesis still did believe in 24-hour days)


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DavidOH
Junior Member (Idle past 2741 days)
Posts: 11
From: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Joined: 09-12-2008


Message 13 of 65 (541312)
01-02-2010 1:36 PM


Agnostic opinion
One reason for all the churches has been brought up - doctrine splits of one kind or another.

Another reason is the feeling of community in the church. Some people like me don't like large groups. Some of the megachurches have thousands at each service. I am not comfortable in the crowd. Others I know want to feel like they have a voice in the church which probably won't happen in a mega church.

A third reason is outreach. A church may sponsor a new organization/church targeted at a specific under served group - immigrants, younger people, etc. that don't feel like they fit in the existing church.


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roger pearse
Junior Member (Idle past 3478 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 12-30-2009


Message 14 of 65 (541323)
01-02-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by DavidOH
01-02-2010 1:36 PM


How many toilets are necessary
[Deleted]

Edited by roger pearse, : No reason given.


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jaywill
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 15 of 65 (541359)
01-02-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


So, while making my normal drive to take the kids to school the other morning, I took note of the number of churches I saw.

You took note of the number of edifices that you saw. And according to the modern mistaken notion you assumed each religious edifice was a church.

But in the New Testament a church refers to people and not a building.


Mind you, my town is rather small. population: 8,000 as of July last year. here is a map, courtesy of google, of all the churches in town.

There should be one church matched with the one city. This would be the model closest to what we read in the New Testament.

Mind you that does not necessarily mean that there was only one meeting place. There could be meetings of the one city wide church in several different halls or in many homes.

But the city needs only one city wide church. This is what we read in the New Testament. And it is the practice that is being recovered which has been lost.

One city - one church.


(can't upload image to photobucket, work won't allow it.)
Suffice to say, why is there a necessity for soooo frikkin many churches,

It is not necessary and it is not helpful. But it is not unremediable. And some Christians are taking a better way of meeting as the one city wide church.

This is occuring on all five continents.


all reading the same book? Is there that much confusion as to what jesus said? Is there that much confusion as to what you are supposed to do to please god? Would not just one church be sufficient?

To have one church matched with one city is the biblical standard and norm. Do not think it does not require consecration on the part of Christians. And do not think it is easy to do in the natural man.

It is nearly impossible to keep this kind of unity without the Spirit of Christ terminating your natural preferences because we humans easily divide from one another.

But it is possible to practice one city - one church. And it does not mean that all Christians in the city recognize the one city wide church. But those who do can stand upon that ground and have an inclusive attitude towards all their Christian brothers and sisters in the same locality.

www.localchurches.org

Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box


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