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Author Topic:   A Discussion of the Rationalization of Slavery
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 1 of 50 (543055)
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


Buzzsaw has decided to go off on the deep-end rationalizing away the enslavement of African slaves in America and the eradication of American natives from there homeland. Since this is a diversion of the ‘Euthypro Dilemma’ topic here: Message 173. I thought it would be better to rebut his ridiculous claims in a new thread as shown below. I also thought that this can easily tie in with the ridiculous tendency for religious fanatics and fundamentalists to rationalize atrocities that are promulgated in the name of there religions:

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

If white people suffered the same plight you would be either dead or living on one of these 300 reservations which occupy less than 2% of the United States. Would you be saying the same thing?

Hi DA. If white people were pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced, perhaps they too would have no true god to deliver them from their opressive govenments as was the case with the pilgrims.

Hmm, Europeans never disemboweled people alive? Do you read history Buzz? You never heard of the Inquisition? Have you ever heard the term "hanged, drawn and quartered" which was not abolished in the UK until 1814? It is not an African invention it is a European one. It was a European invention in which a human was often disembowled or cut into pieces or torn apart. Oh, yes, that is right, all Europeans were "civilized Christians" and this was just a civilized way to keep people in line. Its ok for the European government to sanction and it but not the dumb African savages.

Also, I am sure those boat rides across the Atlantic where 1/4 to 1/2 of slaves onboard died during the passage across the Atlantic, slaves where shackled nearly 24 hours a day, beat and whipped mercilessly and were barely kept alive or fed, and African women were brutally raped by European sailors; were really just pleasure cruises to the Bahamas.

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

What a crock of shit. Where can you show me that slaves in America fared better than there free African relatives?

I said, often this was the case.

And you know this because of what? What evidence shows that they fare better on there slave masters in American than with there families in Africa? What evidence? Prove it.

Buzz writes:

Some chose to stay with their good masters after the emancipation.

Very few CHOSE to. Some had no choice seeing that even after the emancipation they had few if any human rights and very little resources and sustenance to live off of. The whites in the south were very indignant of there newly emancipated black former slaves and many were former slaves were either hunted down and killed or run off to places more hospitable to them.

Buzz writes:

Many others were endeared to their masters and their families.

Endeared as a dog would be to his master you mean.

Btw, DA. perhaps, if you care to be objective and fair, you would put up on the screen artist's rendition of some of the horrors of cannibalism, disemboweling, and scalping etc, as pagans did to themselves before becoming evangelized to become civilized Christians.

Should I also display the inquisition, the witch trials, eradication of the American Indians and other atrocities exhibited by your so-called “civilized Christians”?

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

So slavery is acceptable as long as white Christians are doing the slaving huh. I guess we Abraham Lincoln was wrong in trying to empancipate the slaves then huh?

This is an obsurd strawman. I'm sure you're aware of that. Nothing I said entertained that position.

No I am not aware of it. You seem to be justifying the enslavement of African Americans and there "kind" treatment by there white masters. I was just extrapolating your position from what you already have told me. Please clarify what exactly your reasoning for justifying the enslavement of African Americans and eradication of American Indians.

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

I guess these attrocities never happened:

These artist renditions are NOT objective of the norm relative to treatment of slaves in the US.

So what was the norm of the treatment of slaves? Are you saying slavery is ok even if slaves were not harshly treated?

They would more accurately depict the ongoing treatment of Christians in totalitarian Islamic nations and secularist communist nations where persecution is ongoing.

And who is justifying the inhumane treatment of anyone in a totalitarian government be they religious or not? Not me? So what is your point?

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

I District Judge Caruthers convened a grand jury in June 1911 to investigate the lynching of the Negro woman and her son. In his instructions to the jury, he said, "The people of the state have said by recently adopted constitutional provision that the race to which the unfortunate victims belonged should in large measure be divorced from participation in our political contests, because of their known racial inferiority and their dependent credulity, which very characteristic made them the mere tool of the designing and cunning. It is well known that I heartily concur in this constitutional provision of the people's will. The more then does the duty devolve upon us of a superior race and of greater intelligence to protect this weaker race from unjustifiable and lawless attacks."

This was just good Christian white folk keeping the ignorant black nigers in check.

Again, this was not the norm.

Than you never lived in the South, I have. Because this was and in some places is still the norm even if people no longer openly vocalize it.

Why don't you put up some stats on how many whites gave their lives during the Civil War to emancipate the blacks.

And how does this justify the enslavement of blacks in the first place? Very few of those in the North went to war with the South just because of the plight of the slaves of the South. Not all Northerners were abolitionists and many held as contemptible attitudes towards blacks as there southern neighbors even if they did not practice slavery. The Civil War was a complex war with many different factors and undertones. It was much about economics if not more so as it was about the human rights of the African slaves.

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

The Republican Party founded shortly before the Civil War is nothing like the Republican Party of today.


LOL. Better do some historical research on this, DA, all the way up to the present. Democrats have consistently been on the wrong side relative to integration and advancement of blacks up to the present.

There have been and still are racist bigots in both parties. My point was that racism is as rampant in the Republican party in the past and the present and is it is and was in the Democratic party. Yes the Democratic Party after the Civil War up to the Civil Rights Act was largely pro-segregation however within the past 30-40 years many of these anti-segregation Southern Dixicrats switched parties and became Republicans resulting in the staunchly conservative Republican Party of today.

I myself am a registered Independent and do not really care for either party or there agendas much less there spotty history.

Buzz writes:

Me writes:

Go read your history books Buzz and stop inventing your own white supremacist racist history.

This personal attack either depicts your ignorance or implicates you as a liar, DA. Either put up or shut up on that account.
ABE: Today I have spent much of the day working with a very black black friend of a number of years under a truck changing a tranny, on my cold driveway. I loaned him over a hundred dollars with no receipt; just his word to pay it back when he can. I also donated to and voted for Allan Keys, a revered very intelligent black when he ran for president of the US a number of years ago. Way back in the early 1950s when in the USAF my a black was my favorite superior officer and another black airman I despised almost as much as I despise the (enemy of the republic) black which we have elected to preside over us. Because of his superiour rank he was very condescending, particularly towards whites under his authority. Over the years I have both helped and befriended many Americans of black descent, some brothers in Christ and some not. I have sent regular donations and clothes via Voice of the Martyrs to African poor for several decades. Yah, DA, ole man buz most certainly must have a history of bigoted racism. NOT!

(I've added the above because I must continually set the record straight on this here at EvC, because of folks like you , DA, who lower yourself to attacking the messenger rather than addressing the pertinent point typed. )

I wonder what your African American friend would say if you told him that that it was justifiable and humane for the whites to have enslaved his ancestors because his ancestors were “pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced”.

Please, tell him this and then tell me what his reaction is. I dare you. And then let me see how long he will continue to be your friend. No, you are too chicken to do this because you can say this racist stupidity on this board without impunity and then make the ridiculous claim that you are not a racist and have black friends. If they truly knew this is the way you felt than I would venture 99% of them would cease to be your friends much less associate with you.

Furthermore you telling me you have black friends does not discount the fact that you may have a racist view of them. My grandfather, a Southern Christian minister for over 40 years also had several black “friends”. However, he viewed these “friends” as ethnically, socially and mentally beneath him. I cannot see your heart of hearts and how you truly view your African American “friends” but from the skewed view of history and rationalization for slavery that you spew out of your mouth, I and I am sure others on this board cannot but come to the realization that you have a white-centric racist view of history much less your social connections.

If I am wrong please correct me but this is just the way you come across.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 50 (543072)
01-15-2010 7:24 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the A Discussion of the Rationalization of Slavery thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 50 (543089)
01-15-2010 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


Can't say that I'm shocked to hear the shit tha Buzz is shovelling. Fundies will do anything to justify thier foul beliefs.

After all does it not say in the Bible that you can keep slaves from another tribe?

Seesm like a pretty cut and dried case that if you are a fundementalist and you keep slaves your conscience is clear.

Manifest Destiny, brother!

Praise Yahweh!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-14-2010 11:25 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2194 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 50 (543095)
01-15-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


...
Hi DA. If white people were pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced, perhaps they too would have no true god to deliver them from their opressive govenments as was the case with the pilgrims.

I can't tell how this is any different from the thread about Pat Robertson rationalizing the earthquake in Haiti.

This also blatantly ignores the fact that a large number of native civilizations that were brutalized by America's burgeoning imperialism did NOT in fact do these things.

Moreover, extoling the pilgrims as rightous is insane! The pilgrims where just as brutal if not moreso than the natives!!!! To their OWN people!

I just absolutly cannot get over this part of the comment "... sold their enemies as slaves... " when in fact the most recent notable institutionalization of slavery came straight from European descendant, Christian America!

Then again, maybe Buz's argument is that black slaves were not our enemies, we just kidnapped them.

It is useful to point out to people who don't think that slavery in America was "that bad" that the incredible death rate of slaves during transport to America was a function of the economics of SCALE of human trafficing. It was WORTH IT for slave traders to load up ships with people such that more than half would die before they could even be sold. Cattle were very literally treated better than human beings by those supposidly being protected by the "one true god".

What is even more dumbfounding to me is who anyone can write that paragraph in any good conscious, let alone proclaim themselves an arbiter of what is good and fair in this world in light of it.

I am mind numbed by this....


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 389 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 50 (543096)
01-15-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
01-15-2010 10:06 AM


On slavery
A few years back one of the more extreme fundies on another board wrote:

My position on slavery? I don't consider it is wrong to have slaves.

The mods eventually pulled the post, but not before it drew a lot of flak. There were even attempts to justify that position by the fundie!

The justification was, of course, the bible.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3165 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 6 of 50 (543120)
01-15-2010 1:22 PM


So, this is the second time I've come here and already I see a thread about fundies justifying slavery. Crazy world we live in.

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 7 of 50 (543126)
01-15-2010 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


Hi DA. If white people were pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced, perhaps they too would have no true god to deliver them from their opressive govenments as was the case with the pilgrims.

Amusingly enough, white people did do several of thsoe things.

Drawing and quartering was, in effect, live disembowelment - often while being hanged. It was used as a method of execution in Christian England.

The Bible allows for the capture and sale of enemies, including women and children, as slaves. And of course, white people did keep slaves. Buz is justifying enslavement by whites by saying that "them ni**ers and injuns used to keep slaves, so it's okay."

The inquisition included more than sufficient methods of torture. And while there were typically no human sacrifices made to the gods, Christian Europe did tend to burn people at the stake for not believing in the Christian god. That's really not that different.

Bringing civilization, medicine, and basic human rights to an area is certainly a good thing But you aren't doing that when you're committing genocide (and the treatment of Native Americans cannot be regarded as anything else) or perpetrating the very inhumanities you claim to be curing (ie, slavery).

I mean, really. I bet Buzz would get along just fine with SO and his buddies at Stormfront. I wonder if he's already a card-carrying member of the KKK? I'm going to take extra special pleasure out of sex with my mixed-race atheist girlfriend tonight, just because "polluting" my pure Dutch blood would piss them off.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 8 of 50 (543129)
01-15-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Species8472
01-15-2010 1:22 PM


Good old Christians.

They're the best.

Edited by Larni, : spellink


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 578 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 9 of 50 (543133)
01-15-2010 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rahvin
01-15-2010 2:49 PM


Rahvin writes:

...my pure Dutch blood would piss them off.


You're Dutch (or descended from)? Wow go Dutchies I guess!


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 10 of 50 (546157)
02-08-2010 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


In regards to slavery and manifest destiny I usually only find two kinds of people, and they are at ideological opposite ends. One finds every justification for why early settlers were right to have slaves and to massacre natives because natives were diabolically evil and barbarous, and slaves were just too stupid to know any better like unreasoning animals. The other end paints a picture where the settlers were just diabolically evil and hell bent on raping every last vestige of mother earth, a typical story played out in half of the Walt Disney collection.

The reality is, like it is with most things, probably is a mixture of both sides minus the extremism of each view.

The reality is that there is no discernible "good guys/bad guys" in this scenario. There's smatterings of good and bad in both cultures, just like it is with all people.

Africans enslaved Africans, Asians enslaved Asians, Middle Easterns enslaved Europeans, Europeans enslaved Africans, different tribes among native Americans enslaved each other, so on and so forth thousands upon thousands of years before the time frame being currently discussed in this thread.

So what's the problem here?

The problem is we have revisionist historians who have a role to play and an agenda to defend.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 50 (546159)
02-08-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
02-08-2010 10:19 PM


Hyrpglphyx writes:

So what's the problem here?

I am not debating that there are plenty of attrocities and bad things to spread around which were caused by other cultures including the African and Native American cultures. In no way am I trying to whitewash and venerate their misdeeds. Furthermore, I am not debating that some Africans sold other Africans into slavery to the European slaver's of the 15th to 18th centuries for financial gain. However many of these attrocities caused by the African or Native American 'race', pale in comparision to the scope of autrocities caused by the caucasion 'race' i.e. the Romans, Spanish, Germans, etc to other cultures. I do agree though, that the human species as a whole is equally culpible for committing the worst attrocities against its own species.

My beef here, really is with Buzz's obvious myopic white supremist perspective that the 'White' Americans were justified in the erradication and enslavement of other cultures no matter what the reasons. That is my beef. That someone still holds this belief is really intollerable and unacceptable in a public forum in the 21st century. If someone wants to believe this privately, I could care less as long as he does not infringe on the rights of others. Yes, he has the freedom of speech to say what ever the heck he wants but I also have the freedom of speech to say he is a racist jerk.

The problem is we have revisionist historians who have a role to play and an agenda to defend.

I am not sure if you are accusing me of being a revisionist but if you think that I am please show me how.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-08-2010 10:19 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-09-2010 9:10 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 50 (546168)
02-09-2010 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-14-2010 11:25 PM


The scary things about all of this:

(1) Buz is a pastor who preaches at his church. Just imagine all the youths that are being indoctrinated by this evil man masquerading as some kind of holy man standing on moral high grounds.

(2) Not a single fundy has spoken out against buz's evil beliefs. Silence is another way of approval.

(3) Last I checked, fundies make up a significant portion of the population. Significant enough to keep gay people as second class citizens.

(4) Buz probably doesn't even understand why his beliefs are evil. He's probably still convinced he's right about slavery and continues to teach people in his community this evil way of thinking.

Just imagine what kind of fucked up country we'd be living in if people like buz are in charge.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 13 of 50 (546170)
02-09-2010 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
02-09-2010 1:23 AM


Just imagine what kind of fucked up country we'd be living in if people like buz are in charge.

IF?


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 50 (546195)
02-09-2010 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2010 10:49 PM


many of these attrocities caused by the African or Native American 'race', pale in comparision to the scope of autrocities caused by the caucasion 'race'

Isn't that very mentality racist itself? I am pointing to the cultures, not the races of said culture. There is no genetic predisposition known to science that would cause certain races to be more or less violent.

Regardless, my focus was that not all of history regarding slavery, manifest destiny, or the like can be summarized so neatly in absolute terms of good and bad.

My beef here, really is with Buzz's obvious myopic white supremist perspective that the 'White' Americans were justified in the erradication and enslavement of other cultures no matter what the reasons.

I read Buz's words and I agree that he is essentially defending the settlers actions for things that should never have happened, especially if they are every bit as Christian as he says. There have bee incalculable atrocities committed in the name of Christ to which he attempts minimize, hand wave, or deny altogether. That being said the real history doesn't exactly make monsters out of the settlers either. Like anything else it should be viewed case by case.

I am not sure if you are accusing me of being a revisionist but if you think that I am please show me how.

No I am accusing some "historians" for essentially leading others astray by rewriting history. I was just commenting that usually you have two sides of colonial history.

Either the settlers were all wonderful people, slaves didn't mind being slaves, and the settlers were just defending themselves from dem savage injuns.

The other side is the white man (a.k.a. The Devil) whipped slaves all day long just for fun, ate the flesh of natives, and consumed every natural resource.

The truth lies somewhere in between is my point.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 50 (546212)
02-09-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2010 9:10 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

No I am accusing some "historians" for essentially leading others astray by rewriting history. I was just commenting that usually you have two sides of colonial history.

Either the settlers were all wonderful people, slaves didn't mind being slaves, and the settlers were just defending themselves from dem savage injuns.

The other side is the white man (a.k.a. The Devil) whipped slaves all day long just for fun, ate the flesh of natives, and consumed every natural resource.

The truth lies somewhere in between is my point.


I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble ignoring the connection automatically popped up in my head between your statement and Bush's "it's somewhere in between... it's up for debate" statements when asked about evolution and creationism. Let's cut through the bullshit. We all know he was a creationist. But since it was not fashionable or PC to outright deny evolution, instead he made it sound like he's making a compromise.

Your caricaturization of historians are getting tiring. While I'm not a historian myself, I have mentioned many times on here that I'm a history buff and almost declared that as my major back in college a kazillion years ago because I have a passionate love affair with history (still not sure if the wife approves). Yes, the truth lies somewhere in between the two caricatured positions you summarized. Usually, caricaturizing a position is a sign that you lean towards a position that is not PC.


This message is a reply to:
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