Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
52 online now:
Aussie, CosmicChimp, jar, JoeT, PaulK, RAZD, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat), vimesey (8 members, 44 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Happy Birthday: Anish
Post Volume: Total: 863,426 Year: 18,462/19,786 Month: 882/1,705 Week: 134/518 Day: 8/52 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?
DC85
Member (Idle past 48 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 111 (545876)
02-05-2010 8:56 PM


creationists often point to not only the complexity of life but how the the Universe itself is so complex it needs a creator. The creator of a complex universe would be more complex then it's creation...

You can't have it both ways either complexity means design or it doesn't.

I would like to debate this old line of reasoning.

Edited by Admin, : Change title.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 1:58 AM DC85 has responded
 Message 10 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:46 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12630
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 2 of 111 (545908)
02-06-2010 7:35 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

    
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 518
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 3 of 111 (545988)
02-07-2010 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
02-05-2010 8:56 PM


A simple answer to a complex question.
The contention that if X is the progenitor of Y, then X must be more complex than Y is simply not true. There are many examples that disprove this contention, but one that is easily checked out on many web sites is the Mandelbrot set. This set is generated by the vary simple iterative sequence: Z(n) <- Z(n-1) +C. You can check out wikipedia for exactly what this means, but with less than a dozen symbols, it is obviously a very simple expression.

And yet, the Mandelbrot set it generates is infinitely complex: essentially a continuous closed line (like a circle), but with so many wiggles and squiggles that its length between any two points on the line, no matter how close, is infinite. An infinite variety of patterns are created over and over at ever smaller scales, but with slight variation at each repetition.

This example also counters the creationist argument that complexity cannot arise or increase as a result of a simple, non-intelligent process.

This still leaves the question that if everything that exists needs a prior cause or creator, then who or what created the creator. This necessarily leads to an infinite regression of creators. But, as is amply demonstrated in the tread on whether 0.999... equals 1.0, this infinite regression can exist in a finite span of space, and/or time if it converges to a limit. The sum total of this convergent infinite series can be taken to be god. Thus no contradiction or problem exists for the existence of a god that created the complex universe.

Next question?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 02-05-2010 8:56 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2010 12:50 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded
 Message 5 by DC85, posted 02-07-2010 2:31 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded
 Message 8 by Phage0070, posted 02-10-2010 3:54 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 4 of 111 (546021)
02-07-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals
02-07-2010 1:58 AM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
This still leaves the question that if everything that exists needs a prior cause or creator, then who or what created the creator. This necessarily leads to an infinite regression of creators. But, as is amply demonstrated in the tread on whether 0.999... equals 1.0, this infinite regression can exist in a finite span of space, and/or time if it converges to a limit. The sum total of this convergent infinite series can be taken to be god. Thus no contradiction or problem exists for the existence of a god that created the complex universe.

Next question?

Have you mathematically proved the existence of God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 1:58 AM AnswersInGenitals has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 7:44 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 48 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 5 of 111 (546024)
02-07-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals
02-07-2010 1:58 AM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
The contention that if X is the progenitor of Y, then X must be more complex than Y is simply not true. There are many examples that disprove this contention, but one that is easily checked out on many web sites is the Mandelbrot set. This set is generated by the vary simple iterative sequence: Z(n) <- Z(n-1) +C. You can check out wikipedia for exactly what this means, but with less than a dozen symbols, it is obviously a very simple expression.

And yet, the Mandelbrot set it generates is infinitely complex: essentially a continuous closed line (like a circle), but with so many wiggles and squiggles that its length between any two points on the line, no matter how close, is infinite. An infinite variety of patterns are created over and over at ever smaller scales, but with slight variation at each repetition.

This example also counters the creationist argument that complexity cannot arise or increase as a result of a simple, non-intelligent process.

This still leaves the question that if everything that exists needs a prior cause or creator, then who or what created the creator. This necessarily leads to an infinite regression of creators. But, as is amply demonstrated in the tread on whether 0.999... equals 1.0, this infinite regression can exist in a finite span of space, and/or time if it converges to a limit. The sum total of this convergent infinite series can be taken to be god. Thus no contradiction or problem exists for the existence of a god that created the complex universe.

Next question?

good show however if you think hard about this you'd see this assertion of yours can be used show how a god is not needed and that complexity doesn't require design. It amuses me to an extent that you would fail to see this then I realized you're coming at this topic from the stand point "god does exist" rather then "does god exist?" . I can see how you can easily over look that.

this infinite regression can exist in a finite span of space, and/or time if it converges to a limit.
does it? is everything finite? Why would anyone assume time converges to a limit or for that matter is linear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 1:58 AM AnswersInGenitals has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 7:55 PM DC85 has responded

    
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 518
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 111 (546042)
02-07-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
02-07-2010 12:50 PM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
Have you mathematically proved the existence of God?

Of course not. I've only referenced a mathematical proof that an infinite series, all of whose elements are finite, will converge to a finite limit. it is some creationists who erroneously contend that if there is an infinite regression of creators or creation events, than they must have started an infinitely long time ago so that there must be something that has existed for an infinitely long time, which something they call god and then insist it is the god of the bible (or whatever detailed nonsense they believe in).

"...can be taken to be..." in no way implies that doing so is logically valid.

Or were you being sarcastic. I have a problem with sarcasm, particularly when it is sharper or more subtle than my own.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2010 12:50 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 518
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 7 of 111 (546044)
02-07-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by DC85
02-07-2010 2:31 PM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
Please note that I use the word 'can', not 'must'. I am arguing against the creationist position. Nor do I imply that such an interpretation has any logical validity. I am certainly not coming at this debate from the position that god exists. From your OP:

I would like to debate this old line of reasoning.

If you really want to effectively participate in your own debate you will have to read the responses more carefully. I appreciate that coming form Richmond, Virginia, USA that English is probably not your first language so do read the posts more carefully.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DC85, posted 02-07-2010 2:31 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 02-14-2010 10:41 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 111 (546412)
02-10-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals
02-07-2010 1:58 AM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
AnswersInGenitals writes:

The sum total of this convergent infinite series can be taken to be god. Thus no contradiction or problem exists for the existence of a god that created the complex universe.

It is a contradiction for an infinite series of gods creating other gods to claim to be a single, "One True God". It would make more sense for such a being, many treated as one, to call itself "Legion".

Furthermore, the problem with an infinite chain of gods is not it existing within a finite period of time. Rather, the problem is there is nowhere for it to begin. Claiming an infinite series of gods created the universe is less reasonable than claiming an infinite series of universes lead to the creation of the present universe. Occam's Razor would tend to strip out the unnecessary god(s).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 1:58 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 48 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 111 (546853)
02-14-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AnswersInGenitals
02-07-2010 7:55 PM


Re: A simple answer to a complex question.
I did not get your sarcasm and still don't. I'm sorry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-07-2010 7:55 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3060 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 10 of 111 (559878)
05-11-2010 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
02-05-2010 8:56 PM


Here goes nothing...
`creationists often point to not only the complexity of life but how the the Universe itself is so complex it needs a creator. The creator of a complex universe would be more complex then it's creation... `

Good question, heres the confusing answer.

God has no beginning and no end. Therefore, he could not have been created, because this implies that he had a beginning.

This is incredibly complex to explain, but I will do my best. Think about Monopoly (the board game). You and your friends play, and the game ends. If the pieces were alive, they would understand only what is happening in the game. They would know when it started, and when it is over. When the game is over, the board is packed up, and the pieces put away, and the game ceases to exist. Now, the game pieces do not understand that there was time before the game, or time after. They lived in a world that had a beginning, and an end.

The same is true with us. Everyone, and everything we see today has a beginning and an end. Everything dies. And everything starts. God exists outside this boundaries. He did not begin, and will not end. Geez, in the great immortal words of Dane Cook, I did my best! lol.

Dennis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 02-05-2010 8:56 PM DC85 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 1:36 PM dennis780 has responded
 Message 12 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-13-2010 5:22 PM dennis780 has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2010 8:44 AM dennis780 has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1234 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 11 of 111 (560131)
05-13-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:46 PM


Re: Here goes nothing...
God has no beginning and no end. Therefore, he could not have been created, because this implies that he had a beginning.

One problem is, there are an infinite amount of god concepts, there is no way your personal god concept deals with every one of them. The one you happen to believe in (assuming you take the bible as your reference guild) is claimed to have these qualities. But here again, its just what was written in the bible, by men thousands of years ago. So the question remains, how did they know god fits that characteristic? What was their evidence for this? Its all vague is it not?

If you say, well they were inspired by god. Then I would ask how you know that. If you say, because that's what the bible says, then that is circular reasoning.

Also, how do you know god is a male?

Everyone, and everything we see today has a beginning and an end.

This is wrong. Let me ask, when did you begin to exist, when you were born, when your parents had sex, before that as sperm, before that in your grandfather? you can see how far we can go with this. All the way back to just carbon elements.

Nothing we see today has a beginning, even an ending is pointless to claim because when we die we continue to decompose and become something else.

In fact I'll challenge you to show one example of something that has a beginning and an end that I couldn't demonstrate was just a different form of something else.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:46 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 10:15 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 403
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 12 of 111 (560183)
05-13-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:46 PM


Re: Here goes nothing...
...and that's pretty much what was delivered.

All you have done is to restate the religious claim, you have done nothing to explain it.

Capt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:46 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3060 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 13 of 111 (562529)
05-29-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by onifre
05-13-2010 1:36 PM


Re: Here goes nothing...
"One problem is, there are an infinite amount of god concepts"

this is true, but only one true God (supposing I am correct in the existance of one). the same is true with evolution, with many different theories, sometimes conflicting, but yet the theory remains. The truth is, evidence for any conceptual theory must be present for the rational mind to accept anything as possibly true. So, to show that God is true, rationally, evidence should agree with the biblical account of life and earth. There are many evidences, that are discussed in many other threads, but specifically the peak of Mount Sinai being burnt (agreeable with the biblical account of the ten commandments), and the chariot wheels found along the sand bar of the Red Sea (agreeable with the biblical account of Moses).

"Also, how do you know god is a male"

He isn't. I refer to Him in this sense mainly because the bible does this. Reason for this is males represent strength, and God made man in his image, so the male is commonly associated with God. Spirits do not have sex differences, as sexual organs are required to determine this.

"This is wrong. Let me ask, when did you begin to exist, when you were born, when your parents had sex, before that as sperm, before that in your grandfather? you can see how far we can go with this. All the way back to just carbon elements."

Sure. How about the light elements of helium and hydrogen. Since they came from a singularity of nothing. But everything has a beginning and an end. To think otherwise is silly at best. Although the basic compounds of our bodies can be useful to organisms, when brain activity ceases, our body is functionless, not capable of life, and is considered dead.

Also I did not exist in my grandfather. Since my fathers DNA is different from my grandfathers, and gentic code is used for testicular Function, it is only plausible to accept that I have been Alive as long as my fathers genetic code.

But I can give hundreds of examples. Any fruit for example. An apple is only in existance from when it grows on the tree, to when it decomposes or is eaten. When either happens, it no longer is considered an apple.

Also anything invented by man had a beginning, such as titanium.

AND, if the biblical account of the beginning of life is true, even by your twisted view, everything had a beginning, since God created it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 1:36 PM onifre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Theodoric, posted 05-29-2010 10:55 PM dennis780 has responded
 Message 15 by Huntard, posted 05-30-2010 5:06 AM dennis780 has not yet responded
 Message 16 by bluescat48, posted 05-30-2010 7:47 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 05-30-2010 11:45 AM dennis780 has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 14 of 111 (562531)
05-29-2010 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dennis780
05-29-2010 10:15 PM


Are you just lazy
or are you stupid. You have been shown multiple times how to correctly format quotes on this forum. If you click peek mode you can easily see how it is done.

As you may have noticed EVERYONE else follows this format. It makes reading a post much easier.

Do you think you are special? Since you have been shown many times how to use the db codes and you continue to not use all I can figure is that you are just refusing to. This makes you look like an ass.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 10:15 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 2:19 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 578 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 15 of 111 (562536)
05-30-2010 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by dennis780
05-29-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Here goes nothing...
dennis780 writes:

this is true, but only one true God (supposing I am correct in the existance of one).


Why? Why can't there be multiple true gods?

the same is true with evolution, with many different theories, sometimes conflicting, but yet the theory remains.

Not really, no.

The truth is, evidence for any conceptual theory must be present for the rational mind to accept anything as possibly true. So, to show that God is true, rationally, evidence should agree with the biblical account of life and earth.

Well, then you lose, because it doesn't.

There are many evidences, that are discussed in many other threads, but specifically the peak of Mount Sinai being burnt (agreeable with the biblical account of the ten commandments), and the chariot wheels found along the sand bar of the Red Sea (agreeable with the biblical account of Moses).

There aren't any chariot wheels found along the beaches of the red sea, hell, even the coral structures in the red sea (well, not the red sea, actually but the Arabian gulf), have never been verified as being chariot wheels. And even if they were, this still isn't evidence they're from the exodus event. Also, there is of course no possibility that the ten commandments event was written when the top was already black?

Sure. How about the light elements of helium and hydrogen. Since they came from a singularity of nothing.

No they didn't.

But everything has a beginning and an end. To think otherwise is silly at best.

Even god? Or does it then suddenly not apply?

Since my fathers DNA is different from my grandfathers, and gentic code is used for testicular Function, it is only plausible to accept that I have been Alive as long as my fathers genetic code.

Your DNA is different for your fathers as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 10:15 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019