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Author Topic:   All Heinlein all the time
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 8 (562345)
05-27-2010 10:51 PM


In Straggler's thread about 10 books, a tangent discussion on Heinlein has sprung up. In the interests of not taking his thread off topic, I ask that all Heinlein discussion take place here instead.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 2 of 8 (562346)
05-27-2010 11:00 PM


Author Avatar
Dr Adequate writes:
Books like Starship Troopers or Stranger In A Strange Land or Job are OK-ish because although they may be expressions of Heinlein's philosophy they don't have the same old perennial infuriating Author Avatar in there constantly preaching at us as to what we should think. Time Enough For Love is the very worst thing that he ever wrote, or if he ever wrote anything worse I am grateful not to have read it ... oh, wait ... he did write a novel that was even worse than that, but I've forgotten the title. Oh ... two novels worse than that. One of them was called Friday. I can't remember what the absolute worst one was called.
I gotta think you have made a mistake. I've read Friday many, many times and can't remember any preaching in it. Can you recall particulars, or even generalities?
I'm also puzzled about why you don't put Starship Troopers in your "Author Avatar" category. Surely, the school instructor, Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois, would fall squarely in that concept. BTW, don't mistake my enjoyment of the book with an endorsement of the politics preached, that only those who serve in the military are true citizens entitled to vote. It's interesting, and Heinlein gives an intellectually intriguing defense, but I'd never support the idea IRL.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2010 11:51 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 8 (562348)
05-27-2010 11:05 PM


Sixth Column aka The Day After Tomorrow
This is a book I'd love to see made into a movie. However, given the high level of Asian xenophobia and racism, it's very unlikely. But it's an entertaining story with a very neat technological concept.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 4 of 8 (562349)
05-27-2010 11:21 PM


Thanks!
Thanks for starting a new thread.
Now, if you all will express some opinions I'll be happy to show you where you are wrong!

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 8 (562351)
05-27-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by subbie
05-27-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Author Avatar
I gotta think you have made a mistake. I've read Friday many, many times and can't remember any preaching in it. Can you recall particulars, or even generalities?
* spoiler alert *
The reason I don't like Friday is different. It's because the narrator marries her rapist. I was enjoying it up to the last few pages.
Heinlein's attitude to women is really creepy.
I'm also puzzled about why you don't put Starship Troopers in your "Author Avatar" category. Surely, the school instructor, Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois, would fall squarely in that concept.
Well, in the first place there isn't that much of him, and in the second place Heinlein doesn't so blatantly make it clear that he's advocating such a society, he's just postulating it. I can read Asimov and not think that he's a monarchist ...
But what really annoys me is that Heinlein has this massive gift as a natural storyteller which I couldn't acquire in a hundred years and so often he wastes that ability by being the most colossal bore. What I object to is not so much that he has a point of view that he wants to incorporate into his fiction as that his characters will spend page after page explaining it to me.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by subbie, posted 05-27-2010 11:00 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by subbie, posted 05-28-2010 12:02 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 7 by Coyote, posted 05-28-2010 12:20 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2010 2:07 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 6 of 8 (562352)
05-28-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
05-27-2010 11:51 PM


Re: Author Avatar
Heinlein's attitude to women is really creepy.
I can't argue with that. But that's one of the reasons I rather liked Friday. She was a strong, self-sufficient woman who could cope quite well on her own. (For some reason, I have no recollection of the marriage part you object to.) However, I'm hardly a feminist scholar, and I'm quite sure that there's some reason to disregard Friday as an admirable female protagonist (other than the fact that she was written by a man).
What I object to is not so much that he has a point of view that he wants to incorporate into his fiction as that his characters will spend page after page explaining it to me.
I guess for the most part, that doesn't bother me much. I'm not afraid to skip a bit that doesn't necessarily seem to be moving the plot along if it's boring. Although, I do agree with you about Time Enough For Love. It's probably his only book that I haven't read multiple times. It was deadly dull.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2010 11:51 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 7 of 8 (562353)
05-28-2010 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
05-27-2010 11:51 PM


Re: Author Avatar
The reason I don't like Friday is different. It's because the narrator marries her rapist. I was enjoying it up to the last few pages.
I think it is more complicated than that.
Heinlein's attitude to women is really creepy.
I disagree. He had strong and competent women throughout his works, starting when that wasn't the thing to do. His women may not match the current "feminist ideal" but that doesn't mean that his version was "creepy." There are dozens of examples that could be cited, from early characters such as Betty in The Star Beast to multiple characters in Time Enough for Love.
quote:
I'm also puzzled about why you don't put Starship Troopers in your "Author Avatar" category. Surely, the school instructor, Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois, would fall squarely in that concept.
Well, in the first place there isn't that much of him, and in the second place Heinlein doesn't so blatantly make it clear that he's advocating such a society, he's just postulating it. I can read Asimov and not think that he's a monarchist ...
The character of Jean V. Dubois actually appeared in numerous novels, in greater or lesser degree. You can find that going back to Space Cadet and Tunnel to the Stars. It was probably most prominent in Starship Troopers, but that strong and principled educator was a significant theme. You can even find that in his first novel, published only after his death, For Us the Living (1938 if I remember correctly).
But what really annoys me is that Heinlein has this massive gift as a natural storyteller which I couldn't acquire in a hundred years and so often he wastes that ability by being the most colossal bore. What I object to is not so much that he has a point of view that he wants to incorporate into his fiction as that his characters will spend page after page explaining it to me.
I think the number of successful books, reprints, and foreign editions suggests that he was not a bore to that many readers. He sold literally millions of books. It might be close to a hundred million in all editions. Certainly some found him interesting.
Perhaps you disagreed with his point of view, and that made his books more objectionable or boring?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2010 11:51 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 8 (562355)
05-28-2010 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
05-27-2010 11:51 PM


Re: Author Avatar
quote:
Well, in the first place there isn't that much of him, and in the second place Heinlein doesn't so blatantly make it clear that he's advocating such a society, he's just postulating it. I can read Asimov and not think that he's a monarchist ...
I can't say what Heinlein thought at the time of writing, however he later tried to deny that the society was even set up like that. And a lot of his fans try to deny it, too - you can get long arguments on the internet. I think that is pretty good evidence that if he ever did think it was a good idea, he changed his mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2010 11:51 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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