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Author Topic:   Why is sin heritable?
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 139 (563627)
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


Why did Yahweh make sin heritable?

If one accepts that Adam deserved punishment and Yahweh did indeed punish him why did Yahweh also decide to punish other people (Adam descendants) so setting in motion the events that required Yahweh kill his own son.

I would contend that Yahweh's 'go to' method for getting things done is suffering even to the point of making himself suffer, but that can't be right, can it?


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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 2 of 139 (563637)
06-06-2010 7:33 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why is sin heritable? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 139 (563638)
06-06-2010 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


Sin Is The Offense
Hey Larni,

When I saw the title, I thought, about time someone brought that up (although my position is probably opposite); but after that your OP didn't thrill me at all.

The title asks why sin is heritable and your first question is why did Yahweh make sin heritable. Two very good questions.

Unfortunately the rest of your OP deals with punishment and suffering, not sin.

Sin is the offense, not the punishment. Since religious and moral laws change, what is considered sin also changes.

I don't see that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable.

What in the Bible gives you the impression that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable?

Hopefully you do want to discuss whether sin is heritable and not just another thread on punishment and suffering supposedly caused by God.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 139 (563642)
06-06-2010 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
06-06-2010 7:53 AM


Re: Sin Is The Offense
Hi PD.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was getting on the punishment pony

I'm more interested in the title, i.e. I'm interested in whether sin is heritable and why Yahweh chose to make it that way.

What in the Bible gives you the impression that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

To me this means the state of being 'in sin' is passed on through generations. Yahweh seems to have decreed that all people will start off in a state of sin.

As Yahweh decided by fiat that this is the case Yahweh could be seen as responsible for humans being in the sate of 'sin'.

Is that your kitty in your avatar?

Edited by Larni, : Kitty talk.


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Asking
Junior Member (Idle past 3380 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 05-19-2010


Message 5 of 139 (563653)
06-06-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


When filling the coffers is dependent on people believing that they have commited some crime and that you're the only way they can find absolution for said crime it makes good business sense to brainwash people into thinking they are guilty from birth.

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 6 of 139 (563656)
06-06-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Asking
06-06-2010 10:32 AM


When filling the coffers is dependent on people believing that they have commited some crime and that you're the only way they can find absolution for said crime it makes good business sense to brainwash people into thinking they are guilty from birth.

I agree.

However, I'm taking the position that it is all true and asking about Yahweh's motivation to make sin heritable.


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 139 (563663)
06-06-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
06-06-2010 9:04 AM


Re: Sin Is The Offense
quote:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

To me this means the state of being 'in sin' is passed on through generations. Yahweh seems to have decreed that all people will start off in a state of sin.

As Yahweh decided by fiat that this is the case Yahweh could be seen as responsible for humans being in the sate of 'sin'.


I figured that would be the verse. Paul is the one implying that "sin" was passed through the generations, not YHWH.

1. That verse is in a letter written by Paul, not God.
2. Paul is preaching, not speaking for God. (D'rash)
3. Sometimes it takes a while before Paul gets to his point.
4. Paul is personifying sin and death. Neither is a thing.

His point is at verse 18.

5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Paul isn't saying that "sin" is now gone. One still has to choose to obey, just as they did throughout the OT.

From the Prophet Ezekiel

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Sales pitches are usually all encompassing.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 8 of 139 (563665)
06-06-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
06-06-2010 9:04 AM


Sin and death
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

To me this means the state of being 'in sin' is passed on through generations. Yahweh seems to have decreed that all people will start off in a state of sin.

Adam invited sin into all men. This means that men became sinners because of Adam: not because of Yahweh. Yahweh made no such decree. He told Adam not to sin. Adam sinned. Consequences followed. Yahweh tried to figure out a way to relate to people who had found themselves in a state of sin.

If one accepts that Adam deserved punishment and Yahweh did indeed punish him why did Yahweh also decide to punish other people (Adam descendants) so setting in motion the events that required Yahweh kill his own son.

Yahweh did indeed punish the descendants of Adam, but not with sin. That was Adam's doing alone. It was not required that Jesus was killed. Jesus was killed because of the sin of men (which leads to death).
It was his resurrection that contains the magic. By undoing the death that sin caused, Yahweh made it possible to overcome even the death that must follow from sin through faith (being the terms and conditions of Yahweh's covenant). A believer finally is able to live in triumph over sin and death.

We killed the Christ because of sin. Jesus knew that we would do so. God said the Christ must let himself be betrayed, captured, tortured and executed. It was the Christ's obedience to Yahweh's command that made all of mankind righteous in his eyes, meaning he could overcome man's sin and therefore death, leading to the resurrection and the promise of eternal life. It's a loophole. Yahweh can't get rid of sin, but now if we have faith in his promise to resurrect us all - he can give us final triumph over the calamity Adam brought upon us all.

At least that's how I read Romans 4-5

I would contend that Yahweh's 'go to' method for getting things done is suffering even to the point of making himself suffer, but that can't be right, can it?

I don't think Paul argues that the Christ is Yahweh. But suffering is important, it says so in Chapter 5. Suffering leads to perseverance, perseverance leads to character, character leads to a positive expectation (or hope), which Yahweh then fulfils.

I'm not sure how this fits into the argument, maybe someone else can fill in the gaps on that?


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 139 (563676)
06-06-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
06-06-2010 11:57 AM


Re: Sin and death
Adam invited sin into all men. This means that men became sinners because of Adam: not because of Yahweh. Yahweh made no such decree. He told Adam not to sin. Adam sinned. Consequences followed. Yahweh tried to figure out a way to relate to people who had found themselves in a state of sin.

But isn't that kind of like saying that YHWH didn't make the rules, just because it isn't explicitly in the bible? Why is it assumed that just because A&E sinned, that we are all wrought with sin? God created the situation, yes?

Genesis 15-17 writes:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

That tells me that god did institute the inherit sin, even though it was due to A&E eating some fruit.

Yahweh did indeed punish the descendants of Adam, but not with sin. That was Adam's doing alone.

What that amounts to, in my opinion, could equate to this: you place a bet with a bookie. You can't pay the bookie. The bookie now tortures your kids when you die even though they had nothing to do with it.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 10 of 139 (563678)
06-06-2010 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


Why did Yahweh make sin heritable?

I don't know fully. But Paul has a sentence indicating God includes all people into a kind of resevoir for His own purposes of working out His eternal purpose:

" For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. " (Rom. 11:32)

The inherited sin nature passed down to all humanity through humanity's head, Adam, has shut up all people in disobedience.

The "second man" Jesus Christ as a new Head of a new humanity reconciled to God, is another great resevoir of God's mercy. We have the choice to step out of one resevoir into the other.

So the principle that works against all descendents of Adam through Adam's disobedience is also used to justify all associated with "the last Adam", the "second man" Jesus Christ.


If one accepts that Adam deserved punishment and Yahweh did indeed punish him why did Yahweh also decide to punish other people (Adam descendants) so setting in motion the events that required Yahweh kill his own son.

It does not so easily come to my mind that Scriptures speak of Adam's punishment by God all that much. I admit that Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden and excluded from the tree of life was a punishment. But on the other hand it is a protection from allowing Adam to live some kind of hellish everlasting existence as a sin infested being.

"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of US knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever -

Therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken.

So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed a cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen. 3:22-24)

Yes, this expulsion is a punishment, on one hand. But on the other it is God's preventing the now poisoned Adam and Eve from also escaping eventual death from their miseries. He did not want them to live everlastingly as sin infested beings.

If a mother warns her child not to drink a certain bottle of poison, and the child disobeys to do so, the child has two problems. On one hand the transgression of the command is a problem. On the other the child has received poison into thier system.

The poison of sin and death into Adam's constitution is a self inflicted punishment. It is the result of his being constituted with a evil foreign element of which he was warned not to ingest.

In the same way, it is a little off to regard that the mother is "punishing" the child because of the aches and pains of the poison the child disobediently ate.

It is not that obvious to me that God is punishing Adam. Adam is suffering for a self inflicted derangment of his being.

And God's excluding him from the tree of life seems less to me a concern for competition than a garuantee that Adam would not continue to live forever in this deranged state. That would be a hellish existence.


I would contend that Yahweh's 'go to' method for getting things done is suffering even to the point of making himself suffer, but that can't be right, can it?

I am not sure what this means. I only have a faint idea of what you mean by God's "go to" method.

Jesus Christ is God incarnate as the Son of God, the Son of Man who came and suffered and died for the sinner's redemption. I think it will require eternity for me to fathom that act of God.

But His suffering and death, first for three hours at the hand of man, and then for three hours at the hand of His Father, reveals among other things His absoluteness for God's eternal purpose. He cared nothing for Himself. He wanted nothing for Himself. He only cared absolutely for the will of God.

This is in essence the God who loved us so much that He went to the uttermost to save us from ourselves having become at emnity with God.

This dying of the Son of God is God going to the farthest possible extent to save the objects of His love back into His eternal purpose. So the Apostle John says God "SO loved ... SO loved the world" .

" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who belueves into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:16,17)

These words came out of the mouth of Jesus. They mean that His receiving into Himself the divine justice of God on behalf of we sinful Adamic descendents, testifies the great extent to which God loved the wayward world. And the key to the appreciation of how great God's love was resides in our realization of how precious Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was to the Father.

I think the revelation of the Bible is that God could go to no greater extent in His love to save us from His own perfect divine Justice and impart into us His eternal life.

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26)

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 139 (563680)
06-06-2010 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by hooah212002
06-06-2010 12:33 PM


Re: Sin and death
quote:
But isn't that kind of like saying that YHWH didn't make the rules, just because it isn't explicitly in the bible?
Yes

quote:
Why is it assumed that just because A&E sinned, that we are all wrought with sin? God created the situation, yes?
Paul is a salesman. He personifies sin to make his point. Sin is not something to have. It is something we are capable of doing. IOW, going against the rules. A&E also had that capability before eating from the tree. In that sense, yes, God created us with the capability to disobey.

One has to break a rule to be a sinner. Once restitution is made, when possible, one is no longer a sinner. The idea that we are all wrought with sin due to no action of our own, IMO, was generated from Paul's writings.

quote:
That tells me that god did institute the inherit sin, even though it was due to A&E eating some fruit.
I don't see how that says anything about inherent "sin". Adam and Eve were punished for their mistake. The story doesn't tell us they continued to break the rules once they left the garden. Cursing the ground is the consequence, not the action.

God tells Cain he can master the urge to do wrong.

4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Again sin is personified.

quote:
What that amounts to, in my opinion, could equate to this: you place a bet with a bookie. You can't pay the bookie. The bookie now tortures your kids when you die even though they had nothing to do with it.
Actually, it's more like a couple who start out with everything and make a mistake that causes them to lose everything, then they have kids. The kids will be impacted by the consequences of their parents choices, but the kids aren't being punished. They live in an apartment instead of a mansion, etc. Another good lesson from the story.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 06-06-2010 12:33 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 139 (563713)
06-06-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jaywill
06-06-2010 1:22 PM


The 'go to' reference means that whenever Yahweh wants to get get any thing done he uses suffering.

If a mother warns her child not to drink a certain bottle of poison, and the child disobeys to do so, the child has two problems. On one hand the transgression of the command is a problem. On the other the child has received poison into thier system.

Yahweh put the bottle of poison in plain, open view. He stood by as one of his creations tempted his wife, Eve. Then he made sure that all of Adam's children would be born with the same poison in their metaphorical blood stream.

Yahweh apparently decided that the entirety of humanity should be forever after born with poison in their veins.

Why?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 13 of 139 (563716)
06-06-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
06-06-2010 1:39 PM


Re: Sin and death
The kids will be impacted by the consequences of their parents choices, but the kids aren't being punished.

The kids are only impacted by the actions of their patients because Yahweh decided that it should be so because he wanted it that way. He could have (in his infinite power) have chose another way.

Yahweh could have decided that only the commiter of sin should suffer any consequences.

Why would Yahweh choose this set of condition when he could have (in his infinite mercy) chose another way?


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 14 of 139 (563747)
06-06-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by hooah212002
06-06-2010 12:33 PM


Re: Sin and death
But isn't that kind of like saying that YHWH didn't make the rules, just because it isn't explicitly in the bible?

I'm reading from the Bible and that's what it says. So it is explicitly in there. It's in the Epistle of Paul to the Romans.

Yahweh didn't invite sin in the world. He is/was without sin, Adam invited sin into the world.

That tells me that god did institute the inherit sin, even though it was due to A&E eating some fruit.

Yahweh cursed them and their offspring. That's a separate event.

What that amounts to, in my opinion, could equate to this: you place a bet with a bookie. You can't pay the bookie. The bookie now tortures your kids when you die even though they had nothing to do with it.

Indeed - punishing the children for the inequities of the father is monstrous in our world. But given the short life span of those people - threatening their lives meant a lot less than it does now. It is feasible that punishing offspring serves as a better deterrent. In a world with no CSI, no fingerprints, no CCTV, no mobile phones in every citizens hands...deterrent might be the only way to keep tens of thousands of people from collapsing into internecine bickering and civil war.

Maybe not, but we're talking about sin - not the curse. Unless Paul says the curse was sin, which he might have - I've not studied him in depth.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 15 of 139 (563751)
06-06-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
06-06-2010 5:56 PM


Re: Sin and death
Yahweh didn't invite sin in the world. He is/was without sin, Adam invited sin into the world.

But, like Larni is saying, it could have ended with A&E. Or did A&E create sin itself? Was it their idea that it be passed down to every generation thereafter?

It is feasible that punishing offspring serves as a better deterrent. In a world with no CSI, no fingerprints, no CCTV, no mobile phones in every citizens hands...deterrent might be the only way to keep tens of thousands of people from collapsing into internecine bickering and civil war.

We can see that as a basis for society's initial necessity for a god, but is it a necessity for YHWH?


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

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 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 06-06-2010 5:56 PM Modulous has responded

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