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Author Topic:   Proven phenomena?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6398
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 1 of 51 (567876)
07-02-2010 11:18 PM


It drives me nuts when a poster makes sweeping statements and assertions and then fails to back them up with evidence or even discussion.

One of our newbies has presented a list of purported phenomena that he claims

have been thoroughly proven to occur.

Unexplained Phenomena:

The Placebo Effect
The Sixth Sense
Near Death Experience
UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects
Déjà Vu (Memory illusion)
The Big Bang (Origin of the Universe)
Singularity
Mammatus Clouds
Non-aqueous Rain
St Elmo’s Fire
Ghosts
Spontaneous Human Combustion
Unexplained Disappearances
Bermuda Triangle
The Hum
Psychic Phenomena (esp, remote viewing, telepathy, clairvoyance or telekinesis)
Naga Fireballs
Blue Jets and Red Sprites
Earthquake Lights
Relationship between brain and body
Capacity (psychic and spiritual)
Electronic Voice Phenomenon
The Sirius Mystery (as well as other ancient cosmology knowledge not visible from Earth)
Tunguska Explosion
Charles E. Peck (Chatsworth crash)

A couple of these were addressed in that thread, but I think they need further examination. I would like this to address any support for their existence and/or inexplicability. Unfortunately Practical prodigy may not be willing. Maybe no one else feels as Practical Prodigy does about all of these but I venture to guess that some share his beliefs about at least some of these.

I do not think these are unexplainable phenomena. Some I believe do not even exist. Therefore, I and the other skeptics here will be looking to be convinced that these phenomena exist and/or that there is no rational explanation for those that do exist.

Ideally Practical Prodigy would further develop why he feels the way he does about these "phenomena". In the absence of that maybe others will.

Edited by Admin, : Minor wordsmithing.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Admin
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Posts: 12613
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Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 2 of 51 (567912)
07-03-2010 7:52 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Proven phenomena? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18596
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3 of 51 (567915)
07-03-2010 8:43 AM


What are the implications?
I'm curious about what people believe are the implications of unknown or inexplicable phenomena. Let's say we uncover some phenomena that we can't explain, then science studies it for years and still can't explain it. What does that mean?

--Percy


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6398
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 4 of 51 (567921)
07-03-2010 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
07-03-2010 8:43 AM


Re: What are the implications?
That is a very interesting discussion point, but I really want to discuss whether there are any truly unexplainable phenomena also.

Do you feel any of the items listed on the list are truly unexplainable phenomena?

As to your question. What kind of phenomena are you talking about, physical phenomena or do you include new age woo, like the Sirius thing he mentioned. Also, by not being able to explain, do you mean, no solid, confirmable testable evidence, or no rational hypothesis at all.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 51 (567922)
07-03-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
07-03-2010 8:43 AM


Re: What are the implications?
Percy writes:

I'm curious about what people believe are the implications of unknown or inexplicable phenomena. Let's say we uncover some phenomena that we can't explain, then science studies it for years and still can't explain it. What does that mean?

There is phenomena that science does not study. Example: Fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and the existence of higher intelligence in the universe than that of earth humans.

There is phenomena that must be experienced or witnessed in order to know it exists. Example: Phenomenal (I say phenomenal answers to prayer and other manifestations of the divine known by personal experience.

Not all of the above relates to the Biblical. Example: Missionaries in churches and meetings I've attendended have spoken of experiences in the deep jungles of the islands, the contenent of Africa and South America involving what is considered evil phenomena; things like voodoo, wica, and the power of demonology etc. One example was back in the 1960s or so, missionaries commissioned to the deep jungles of New Guinea encountered a wicca tribal woman who controlled the people to the extent that the missionaries could not penetrate the people until the power of God prevailed after fasting and prayer by the missionaries.

Haiti is another example where a mix of Catholicism and voodoo has prevailed for centuries.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6398
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 6 of 51 (567923)
07-03-2010 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 9:07 AM


Re: What are the implications?
Not all of the above relates to the Biblical. Example: Missionaries in churches and meetings I've attendended have spoken of experiences in the deep jungles of the islands, the contenent of Africa and South America involving what is considered evil phenomena; things like voodoo, wica, and the power of demonology etc. One example was back in the 1960s or so, missionaries commissioned to the deep jungles of New Guinea encountered a wicca tribal woman who controlled the people to the extent that the missionaries could not penetrate the people until the power of God prevailed after fasting and prayer by the missionaries.

Haiti is another example where a mix of Catholicism and voodoo has prevailed for centuries.

None of this is verifiable. All you are bringing is anecdotal evidence. I can tell you plenty of stories of magic and supernatural, but all they are are stories. Your stories are no different.

We are looking for verifiable phenomena, not anecdotes.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3984
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 7 of 51 (567924)
07-03-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 9:07 AM


Re: What are the implications?
None of what you posted is unexplained, though, are they?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 51 (567926)
07-03-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 9:07 AM


Limitations of Science?
Buzsaw writes:

There is phenomena that science does not study. Example: Fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and the existence of higher intelligence in the universe than that of earth humans.

This is false. The SETI project has it *right in the acronym* that it is searching for intelligence other than that of earth humans. God need only radio in for science to find him.

Also, science certainly can study potentially fulfilled biblical prophecy. Science is a method that anyone passingly familiar with the method can perform (with varying degrees of quality of course). Science isn't generally applied toward this end as believers don't like the results.

Buzsaw writes:

There is phenomena that must be experienced or witnessed in order to know it exists. Example: Phenomenal (I say phenomenal answers to prayer and other manifestations of the divine known by personal experience.

See, how would you distinguish this from illusion? If something is only distinguishable from your point of view, why do you consider it likely that your particular point of view most represents the truth?

Buzsaw writes:

...encountered a wicca tribal woman who controlled the people to the extent that the missionaries could not penetrate the people until the power of God prevailed after fasting and prayer by the missionaries.

How is this unexplainable? A tribe following a different religion is somewhat resistant to a different religion, with one woman being especially influential and resistant (this would be expected for any other religion, right?). After working for a while the missionaries begin to make inroads, coincidentally while performing various religious fasts and prayer. The link between the prayer/fasting and the inroads is assumed primarily through confirmation bias rather than actual evidence of a causal link.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31071
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 9 of 51 (567930)
07-03-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
07-03-2010 8:43 AM


Re: What are the implications?
It means that it gets to reside in the "Unexplained Yet" folder.

There is an advantage though to just making up an answer like "goddidit", one that could really be a significant help to those of us in the US particularly. Right now budgets are tight, resources are stretched thin. Our police forces are increasingly challenged by the costs of investigating new crimes as well as all those old unsolved crimes.

Why not simply stamp each unsolved crime that is over some time limit, say three years old, as "goddidit" and close the case?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5396
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 51 (567937)
07-03-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 11:18 PM


Unexplained what? Wikipedia would go a very long way toward explaining much of that "unexplainable".

Just a couple, off the top of my head:

Sprites and jets are electrical discharges, like lightning, except they point up, not down.

"The Sirius Mystery", I presume, refers to Sirius being called a red star in some ancient Egyptian document. The only time the Egyptians were deeply interested in Sirius was when it rose before the Sun to signal the time for the Nile to flood. When celestial objects are near a clear horizon, they often look red: witness the Sun or the Moon. Sirius is no different - its blue light gets scattered nore than its red. So a "red Sirius" was what the Egyptians were looking for. The every-night white Sirius that was high in the southern sky was visible over half the year. A red Sirius before sunrise was important!


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 51 (567941)
07-03-2010 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 11:18 PM


Theodoric writes:

The Placebo Effect


This phenomenon has been observed for as long as there have been people. In modern times, various scientific groups have confirmed its existence.

There is absolutely nothing magical about it. And no, it can't cure something like AIDS or cancer. But on a small level, it can make people feel better by simply making them believe they should feel better. After all, many women simply feel ill because they've been brainwashed by society to be all feminine and weak and they need men in their lives to protect them. By making them stay at home and make babies, they will feel much better about their lives.

But seriously, this ain't even in the mind-over-matter category. The best proof for this is when a kid gets a booboo, a kiss from you will make him feel 100 times better than a band-aid.

The Sixth Sense

Since nobody is a mind reader, I could claim to be able to see people from the 8th dimension and nobody would be able to confirm it.

What I mean is even if it's real there is no way to verify it independently.

Near Death Experience

Please, this phenomenon is very real. It's called hallucination from oxygen deprivation to the brain.

UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects

Very real phenomenon. We just haven't been able to independently verify it just yet. Still waiting...

Déjà Vu (Memory illusion)

This is a phenomenon that we all have experienced at least once. Since we have two brains, sometimes one brain will get ahead of the other for a split second, making the other brain think that it's been through this before. It's like you coming before your partner during sex...

The Big Bang (Origin of the Universe)

This phenomenon is absolutely false. If there really was such an event, we should have detected an "afterglow" that permeates throughout the universe. Since this cosmic background radiation hasn't been invented yet, obviously the big bang never happened.

Singularity

I wouldn't touch anything that has a ∞ written on there somewhere with a 10 foot pole.

Mammatus Clouds

What the fuck is this?

Non-aqueous Rain

Like acid rain? Again, what the fuck is this?

St Elmo’s Fire

WTF is this?

Ghosts

In the old days, in order to take a picture, a room or someone has to be exposed to the camera for a long time. Think of the misery people had to go through to take a photo. Anyway, if someone moved, it created this ghostly image in those old photos. And everyone knows that Michael Jackson was scarier when he was alive than dead.

Spontaneous Human Combustion

Various tests have shown that something as simple as a cigarette can start a fire with the clothes on the person and the person's fat would sustain the fire for hours. They've done these tests on volunteers as well as pig corpses.

Unexplained Disappearances

Yeah, because we know people don't kidnap people.

Bermuda Triangle

I actually saw an interesting program on the discovery channel a few years ago about this. They actually sat down and compared all the rates of disappearances around the world. And interestingly enough, the rate of disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle is neither higher nor lower than anywhere else in the world. What can I say, people like to tell tall tales.

The Hum

If this Hum exists, there is nothing magical or supernatural about it. Why should we expect sound frequencies only come in the audible spectrum?

Psychic Phenomena

Like Sylvia Brown who told those parents that their son was dead but then that same son was resurrected by jebus?

Naga Fireballs

Don't know what this is.

Blue Jets and Red Sprites

No clue what this is.

Earthquake Lights

The only Earthquake I ever felt was that 2.3 that occurred in Illinois a few months ago.

Relationship between brain and body

Yeah, because we know the brain has absolutely no connection to the body...

Capacity (psychic and spiritual)

Neurons are an amazing thing.

Electronic Voice Phenomenon

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

The Sirius Mystery (as well as other ancient cosmology knowledge not visible from Earth)

They're not visible now because we got mother fucking light polution everywhere. The ancients could only either masturbate or stare at the night sky.

Tunguska Explosion

And what's so mysterious about this event? A comet or meteor exploded in midair, creating a blast the size of New York.

Charles E. Peck (Chatsworth crash)

???

The point I'm trying to make is this list is nothing more than a cluster fuck.

And just because a supposed phenomenon can't be explained now doesn't mean it's supernatural.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6398
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 12 of 51 (567943)
07-03-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
07-03-2010 11:10 AM


Seems that most agree with me
I was really hoping some of the "believers" would join this thread and tell us why some of theses phenomena are "unexplained". It seems there either is no one that feels that way other than Practical Prodigy, or they are not confident in their beliefs.

Hopefully Practical Prodigy will join us and develop at least some of these so we can at least see what he was talking about and what he meant.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 13 of 51 (567945)
07-03-2010 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 11:18 PM


UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects

Would I be correct in assuming that reports of UFO sightings only really started occuring, certainly with any frequency, after planes and helicopters were invented?

And that tales of abductions by aliens weren't nearly as common before the time of HG Wells (i.e. before anyone produced science fiction books and films featuring such tales)?

Is anyone aware of any survey done on this?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4262
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 14 of 51 (567947)
07-03-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
07-03-2010 11:10 AM


St. Elmo's Angels
St Elmo’s Fire

WTF is this?

It is what appears to be "fire" coming from the top of a spire or pole during a thunder storm. St. Elmo is the Patron Saint of Sailors who noticed this "fire" on the tops of masts as they sailed through stormy weather.

Source 1
Source 2

The scientific explanation is fascinating. First, when angels pee their pee does not fall down with the force of gravity. Due to its divine nature it falls up.

Next, we have not yet come to a satisfactory conclusion as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but compared to the width of a ship's mast we can reasonably assume that the mast can hold literally thousands of pissing angels.

The resultant flow of divine urine appears as fire to the eyes of fallen man.

Edited by AZPaul3, : correction

Edited by AZPaul3, : Added sources

Edited by AZPaul3, : Fix title

Edited by AZPaul3, : For such a short msg there sure are a lot of errors.


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 51 (567956)
07-03-2010 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
07-03-2010 9:13 AM


Re: What are the implications?
I was not responding to your message which had a different connotation. I was responding to Percy's Message 3 which had a different connotation than that in your response.

Percy asks what people believe about implications of unknown (not nessarily verifiable) nexplicable (i.e. anecdotale) phenomena.

That something is anectotale does not necessarily require that it be anectotale to someone experiencing the phenomena to an imperical degree.

I understand, for example that levitation has actually been observed by practitioner spiritualists. This has been claimed by converted apostates who have departed from spiritism into Biblical Christianity. I would not attend what I would consider demonic fellowships. Nor would likely an observing scientist. The demons are intelligent enough not to cast what they consider pearls before who they regard as swine. Their best interest is to keep whom they have under their powerful spells unimpeded by incompatible observers.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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