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Author Topic:   Evil Muslim conspiracy...
Rahvin
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Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 1 of 189 (599810)
01-10-2011 5:53 PM


...to stand up for freedom of religion and protect their Christian neighbors.
In Egypt, not the US.
quote:
Egypt's Muslims attend Coptic Christmas mass, serving as "human shields"
Muslims turned up in droves for the Coptic Christmas mass Thursday night, offering their bodies, and lives, as shields to Egypt’s threatened Christian community
Yasmine El-Rashidi , Friday 7 Jan 2011
Egypt’s majority Muslim population stuck to its word Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community, was honoured, when thousands of Muslims showed up at Coptic Christmas eve mass services in churches around the country and at candle light vigils held outside.
From the well-known to the unknown, Muslims had offered their bodies as human shields for last night’s mass, making a pledge to collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants and towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.
We either live together, or we die together, was the sloganeering genius of Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon whose cultural centre distributed flyers at churches in Cairo Thursday night, and who has been credited with first floating the human shield idea.
Among those shields were movie stars Adel Imam and Yousra, popular Muslim televangelist and preacher Amr Khaled, the two sons of President Hosni Mubarak, and thousands of citizens who have said they consider the attack one on Egypt as a whole.
This is not about us and them, said Dalia Mustafa, a student who attended mass at Virgin Mary Church on Maraashly Street. We are one. This was an attack on Egypt as a whole, and I am standing with the Copts because the only way things will change in this country is if we come together.
In the days following the brutal attack on Saints Church in Alexandria, which left 21 dead on New Year’ eve, solidarity between Muslims and Copts has seen an unprecedented peak. Millions of Egyptians changed their Facebook profile pictures to the image of a cross within a crescent — the symbol of an Egypt for All. Around the city, banners went up calling for unity, and depicting mosques and churches, crosses and crescents, together as one.
The attack has rocked a nation that is no stranger to acts of terror, against all of Muslims, Copts and Jews. In January of last year, on the eve of Coptic Christmas, a drive-by shooting in the southern town of Nag Hammadi killed eight Copts as they were leaving Church following mass. In 2004 and 2005, bombings in the Red Sea resorts of Taba and Sharm El-Sheikh claimed over 100 lives, and in the late 90’s, Islamic militants executed a series of bombings and massacres that left dozens dead.
This attack though comes after a series of more recent incidents that have left Egyptians feeling left out in the cold by a government meant to protect them.
Last summer, 28-year-old businessman Khaled Said was beaten to death by police, also in Alexandria, causing a local and international uproar. Around his death, there have been numerous other reports of police brutality, random arrests and torture.
Last year was also witness to a ruthless parliamentary election process in which the government’s security apparatus and thugs seemed to spiral out of control. The result, aside from injuries and deaths, was a sweeping win by the ruling party thanks to its own carefully-orchestrated campaign that included vote-rigging, corruption and widespread violence. The opposition was essentially annihilated. And just days before the elections, Copts - who make up 10 percent of the population - were once again the subject of persecution, when a government moratorium on construction of a Christian community centre resulted in clashes between police and protestors. Two people were left dead and over 100 were detained, facing sentences of up to life in jail.
The economic woes of a country that favours the rich have only exacerbated the frustration of a population of 80 million whose majority struggle each day to survive. Accounts of thefts, drugs, and violence have surged in recent years, and the chorus of voices of discontent has continued to grow.
The terror attack that struck the country on New Year’s eve is in many ways a final straw — a breaking point, not just for the Coptic community, but for Muslims as well, who too feel marginalized, oppressed, and overlooked by a government that fails to address their needs. On this Coptic Christmas eve, the solidarity was not just one of religion, but of a desperate and collective plea for a better life and a government with accountability.
I'm really, really tired of watching people fall for confirmation bias. I'm mentally exhausted by the idiocy of people who say that Muslims are all terrorists, or that Islam requires "infidels" to be converted or killed. I'm exasperated beyond the point of anger or annoyance with ridiculous conspiracy theories of Barack Obama being a "stealth Muslim" intending to destroy America from the top.
You'll note that this story wasn't from CNN or Fox or MSNBC. A nationwide rallying of thousands of Muslims to stand up in defense of Christians in a predominantly Muslim nation would, you woulf hope, get a little airtime (please, if someone saw this story in US-based media outlets, please restore some of my confidence in American journalism, pretty please).
Here we had an incident where some homicidal maniacs using Islam for an excuse murdered a bunch of Christians as they left their church. What happened? Thousands of Muslims around the country attended Christian Christmas Eve services to act as human shields and take a stand for national unity over religious division, for peace over violence.
This is what the followers of a religion of peace would do.
This is what a decent human being would do.
And still we have idiots painting all of the followers of a religion the same shade as an extremist minority. They quote incitements to violence in the Koran as proof that "real" Muslims (by their own definition, not that of the Muslims themselves) are required to kill non-Muslims. As if I couldn't do five minutes of research and find a dozen Bible quotes advocating murder, rape, slavery, and more. Those Biblical quotes (thankfully) no more describe the morality or obligations of "true" Christians any more than any Muslim is described or obligated by immorality in their own holy book.
Every time you see another story about a homicidal maniac who happens to be Muslim trying to martyr himself through mass murder-suicide, remember this story. Remember that what you hear in the news is not a statistically representative sample, that the American media will always be biased toward tragedy over righteousness simply because of what sells...and what doesn't.
Last week, thousands of Muslims stood up to defend the rights and lives of Christians, who make up only about 10% of the population of Egypt.
Each and every time I'm confronted with a smarmy bigot who sarcastically mocks Islam as a "religion of peace," I'm going to point to this article.
Coffee House is fine.

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 189 (599813)
01-10-2011 7:06 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evil Muslim conspiracy... thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 3 of 189 (599817)
01-10-2011 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
01-10-2011 5:53 PM


A remarkable story of unity and taking a stand against hatred and intolerance. Do you have any others?
I'm sure I can find hundreds, probably thousands, of stories of Islamic violence and terrorism. How many other similar stories of unity can you find? No, never mind similar, how many other stories of any kind can you find where Muslims take a stand, even if nothing more than symbolic, against Islamic violence?
Don't misunderstand me. I agree with your general sentiment that Islam is no more a religion of violence than is Christianity or Judaism. But one story of one act of unity, however stirring, doesn't begin to balance against the countless acts of Islamic violence to which Muslims respond with resounding silence.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2011 8:58 PM subbie has replied
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-10-2011 9:53 PM subbie has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 189 (599818)
01-10-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
01-10-2011 8:33 PM


Countless acts of terrorism
subbie writes:
But one story of one act of unity, however stirring, doesn't begin to balance against the countless acts of Islamic violence to which Muslims respond with resounding silence.
I don't believe there is any more evidence of Muslim silence regarding acts of Muslim violence that there is of non-Muslim silence regarding non-Muslim acts of violence. How about citing an example or two of Muslim silence?

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 5 of 189 (599819)
01-10-2011 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
01-10-2011 8:58 PM


Re: Countless acts of terrorism
I don't believe there is any more evidence of Muslim silence regarding acts of Muslim violence that there is of non-Muslim silence regarding non-Muslim acts of violence.
I don't either.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2011 8:58 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


(2)
Message 6 of 189 (599820)
01-10-2011 9:15 PM


It would be and has been a fallacy to equate the actions of a religion with the actions of religious adherents. It would not be a fallacy if all of the actions of religious adherents are best explained as following from religion--that is, if every Muslim was a "perfect Muslim," then all of their sins could be pinned on the religion itself.
Of course we all realize that the actions of religious adherents do NOT always follow from the religion. All people's actions follow from a mixture of causes, ranging from religion, political ideology, selfish nature, tribal nature, family influences, friend influences, organizations, and personal thoughts.
If the anti-Muslim bigot believes that the evil things that Muslims do follow from the religion of Islam, and the good things that Muslims do follow from something else, then the pro-Muslim advocate may believe that the good things that Muslims do follow from the religion of Islam, and the evil things that Muslims do follow from something else.
The ideal way to resolve the disagreement, then, is to find the best explanations for the respective actions of Muslims.
I am a smarmy anti-Muslim bigot. I believe that very many of the evil things that Muslims do follow only from the religion of Islam. I can explain the bombing of the Coptic Christian church with quotes from the primary guiding text of Islamic thought, the Koran, which you have no doubt already seen. For example, this passage is from the Koran chapter 8 verses 38-39 (translation of Sahih International):
"Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do."
So, your challenge as a pro-Muslim advocate is to find motivational forces within the religion of Islam--in the scriptures, in the preachings of the prominent imams, in the moral beliefs that have lasted generations--that would motivate Muslims to be "human shields" for the Coptic Christians of Egypt. If you think that Islam is merely an "excuse" for the violence among Muslims, then that is what you must show. Show that Islam truly is a religion of peace. Show that the actions in sacrificial protection of members of other religions follow from Islam. Show that such actions probably do not follow from sociological forces outside of Islam.
I take this news to be a sign of hope. I am not completely pessimistic about Islam. Five hundred years ago, Christianity was more bloodthirsty against heretics, blasphemers and apostates than Islam is today. But, Christianity changed for the better. They took the primitive commands to violence and encouragement of hatred in their holy scriptures as outdated and irrelevant. Maybe Muslims will do likewise.
Edited by ApostateAbe, : left out a few words

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 7 of 189 (599821)
01-10-2011 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ApostateAbe
01-10-2011 9:15 PM


so how can you find justification in that passage?
ApostateAbe writes:
I can explain the bombing of the Coptic Christian church with quotes from the primary guiding text of Islamic thought, the Koran, which you have no doubt already seen. For example, this passage is from the Koran chapter 8 verses 38-39 (translation of Sahih International):
"Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do."
I imagine you can use that passage, but I would be very interested to see how you can get justification from it. People can of course make almost any interpretation they want from any passage, but that one sure looks really, really weak.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 9:15 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 9:35 PM jar has replied

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 8 of 189 (599822)
01-10-2011 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
01-10-2011 9:21 PM


Re: so how can you find justification in that passage?
OK, jar, my interpretation--and I'll take the somewhat liberal interpretation of Sahih International (that places extra words in square brackets)--is that it is a command to wage war against those who disbelieve Islam and who are hostile against Islam. The battle must continue until they convert to adherence to Allah. It has relevance in Egypt, because all it takes is a myth of Christian violence against Muslims (or even an actual small event) for the Koran to seem to command Muslims to "fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah."
How do you interpret the passage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 01-10-2011 9:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 01-10-2011 9:45 PM ApostateAbe has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2184 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 9 of 189 (599824)
01-10-2011 9:39 PM


How can you ignore all of this?

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 10 of 189 (599825)
01-10-2011 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ApostateAbe
01-10-2011 9:35 PM


Re: so how can you find justification in that passage?
Well, first you need to read it in context, that it was written during the period of actual war. Second, Christians are not infidels. They are people of the book. Third, it is talking about infidels that are actively opposing the Muslims, making war on them.
It says if they cease making war, then stop.
Here are three other translations by teh way, but you really need to read it in context, that all of Sura 8 is talking about a time of war.
quote:
008.038
YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
PICKTHAL: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
From here.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 9:35 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 10:42 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 189 (599826)
01-10-2011 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
01-10-2011 8:33 PM


But one story of one act of unity, however stirring, doesn't begin to balance against the countless acts of Islamic violence to which Muslims respond with resounding silence.
Here's your resounding silence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 01-10-2011 8:33 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 189 (599827)
01-10-2011 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
01-10-2011 9:53 PM


Thank you for that, Dr.
By my rough count, there are 65 statements there. (I haven't looked at the other collections because it's really too much work and I'm not feeling well.) Almost 2/3 of them (42) were in the aftermath of 9/11, and none of them were before 9/11.
Is this resounding silence? No, I suppose it isn't. Do I expect them to issue new statements for every act of terrorism? Of course not. Also, I recognize that some of those statements come from multiple persons or organizations.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-10-2011 9:53 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 13 of 189 (599828)
01-10-2011 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
01-10-2011 9:45 PM


Re: so how can you find justification in that passage?
OK, jar, so your interpretation is, "...if they cease making war, then stop." That is one condition for stopping the fighting. In the Koran, regardless of translation, there are two conditions for stopping.
1) "there is no more tumult or oppression"
2) "there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere"
You missed the second condition. That is the YUSUFALI translation. The PICKTHAL translation is phrased less tolerably.
1) "persecution is no more"
2) "religion is all for Allah"
The SHAKIR translation is phrased least tolerably.
1) "there is no more persecution"
2) "religion should be only for Allah"
So, stop fighting if they cease making war and they convert to Islam.
If there is a "true" meaning that is somehow different from this, then I think it is easy to see how that meaning would be lost on so many Muslims who are only trying to follow the scriptures as they were written. The Washington Post wrote about the clashes between Coptics and Muslims in 2008:
quote:
"Is it a land dispute when they kidnap monks and torture them?" Brother Michael, 34, asked from a hospital bed in Cairo, where he cradled an arm hit by shrapnel in the attack.
"Is it a land dispute when they tell you to spit on the cross, when they try to make you say the words to convert to Islam?" asked Brother Viner, 30, sitting on Brother Michael's bed. He wore a neck brace because of the beating he received in the attack.
That seems to be a good point. The Egyptian government blamed the violence on a land dispute. When there is a land dispute where I am from, they hire land surveyors and fight it out rhetorically in court. More importantly, such Muslims behaved how they would be expected to behave if they seriously believed the apparent meaning of verse 8:39.
If you have a different interpretation, the challenge is to show that such an interpretation is not just possible but obvious. It should be the best interpretation for any lay reader of the Koran.
Most relevantly, find the passages that would encourage the self-sacrificing actions of the Muslims who were human shields for the Christians on the Coptic Christmas Eve.
Make your case. For example, maybe there is a passage in the Koran where the "people of the book" are well respected and must be respected. I can find condemnation and prediction of damnation for Jews and Christians in the Koran. Show me those other verses on the other side of the coin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 01-10-2011 9:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 189 (599829)
01-10-2011 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ApostateAbe
01-10-2011 9:15 PM


I believe that very many of the evil things that Muslims do follow only from the religion of Islam. I can explain the bombing of the Coptic Christian church with quotes from the primary guiding text of Islamic thought, the Koran, which you have no doubt already seen. For example, this passage is from the Koran chapter 8 verses 38-39 (translation of Sahih International):
"Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do."
But this has nothing to do with Copts. It was written about a specific group of people who had waged war on Muslims qua Muslims:
Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home).
... and drove them out of Mecca and prevented them from worshiping at the Kaaba:
But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians?
... and so the Qur'an says to fight them until they stop persecuting Muslims:
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
The Copts are not at war with Muslims, they are not persecuting them, and they are not preventing them from going to Mecca as and when they choose.
Now it is true that a sufficiently mad mullah might take 8:38-39 out of context as a "proof text" for why Muslims should kill the Copts; but he would be wrong. He would have to ignore the context of those passages; he would have to ignore the passages in the Qur'an urging that Christians be treated with respect (showing that the passages about the "unbelievers" in Sura 8 do not apply to them); and he would have to ignore the historical fact that Muhammad did not in fact kill or forcibly convert the Christians within his dominions, but only waged war against those Arab polytheists who were using force to persecute his new religion (i.e. the people to whom Sura 8 applies).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 9:15 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 11:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 15 of 189 (599830)
01-10-2011 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ApostateAbe
01-10-2011 10:42 PM


Re: so how can you find justification in that passage?
Remember that Jews and Christians were considered folk that worshiped Allah. In addition, as I said, look at the passages in context. The whole Sura is talking about a time of war. In fact if you read on it gets into "spoils of war" and how some must be set aside for Allah.
Yes, there is definitely a history of tension between the three Abrahamic Religions throughout the world. But it is really less about religion and more about power, land, wealth and power.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-10-2011 10:42 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
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