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Author Topic:   Our Socioeconomic Position is at Risk
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 197 (607705)
03-06-2011 8:46 AM


Comments?
In this fascinating video, the economies of the globe are analyzed. I have always griped about the demise of the U.S. Middle class. We may have been victims of our nations own success after World War II and yet we couldn't help being born into some of the sweetest time in global history, materialistically speaking.
Now, as this graph shows, the rest of the world is catching up to the United States, but we hardly yet have any reason for whining. The fact is, however, competition is increasing globally, and I don't feel as if I am up to being quite as competitive at age 51 as a 20 year old would be.
Does anyone else feel as if the middle class in the united States is essentially between a rock and a hard place? In other words, the wealthy keep us down, while the competitive poor are always nipping at our heels, forcing us to scramble ever more to maintain our position in life.
Edited by Phat, : added sub title
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : added dialogue, per the Moose edict.
Edited by Phat, : changed title

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 03-06-2011 10:23 AM Phat has replied
 Message 3 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-09-2011 2:08 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 8:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by Taq, posted 03-09-2011 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 2 of 197 (607716)
03-06-2011 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-06-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Comments?
Dunno why the dude placed the us so highy up on the life expectancy chart because us is on ranks 36 th on the life expectancy per country list Slovenia falls a bit behind on 40eth place.
The bottom chart shows to my best guess average income per person, usually a deceiving number some countries rank high on average income per person tough the majority is broke and only a few have such a high income that it raises the countries average so high. in my opinion not a very good thing to use in such a graph.
depending on the survey
International Monetary Fund, nr 1 is Luxembourg US is on nr nine Luxembourg tops te US by double the income so freaking fare away on that graph from the us
CIA World Factbook, Quatar is in place nr 1 with 3 times as much frigging fare away from Luxembourg not to mention the US us is on the 10th place
World Bank, Monaco leads with 4 times as much as the us frigging far away on that graph us is ont the 10th place
Luxembourg is also on the 30eht place at the life expectancy chart so a way better score al together then the us, quatar is not on that life expectancy chart that includes the US tough their life expectancy is roughly the same as the us so it would haveto be at the same hight and wayyyyy to the right, Monaco's life expectancy ranks on 14teenth place on the same chart where the us ranks at 36 place so it would haveto be higher on the chart and frigging fare to the right
And these are only the top countries i looked at there are allot more places on those charts between them and the US.
This graph is incomplete and it gives the delusion that the us is the best country in the world to live in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-06-2011 8:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 03-09-2011 5:14 AM frako has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 197 (608145)
03-09-2011 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-06-2011 8:46 AM


Some message text and a meaningful topic title would be nice
Your message 1 is essentially a bare link, which is a forum rule violation. We also like to get a topic starter's position statement in message 1.
And the topic title really sucks.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 197 (608159)
03-09-2011 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by frako
03-06-2011 10:23 AM


Re: Comments?
Frako writes:
This graph is incomplete and it gives the delusion that the us is the best country in the world to live in.
Frako, all that the graph shows is our(U.S. position as a whole relative to other Countries as a whole.) It does not reflect individual achievement.
You may well have a splendid lifestyle in Slovenija, and can nearly retire, but what insures that your money will remain stable? Look at Greece..Portugal...Italy. What power keeps Slovenija safe?
y rant concerns the fact that I, as a lower half member of the US middle class, will have to scramble and work harder...much like a 20 year old, to hold my position socioeconomically against a hungry world of young educated foreigners who are even now ranting about unemployment and low wages abroad.
Nobody ever told me that capitalism could be so harsh! I suppose that there are no guarantees in life, however.
Perhap I was lulled into a false sense of security by the economic aberration after WW II that by fate I just happened to grow up in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 03-06-2011 10:23 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 5 of 197 (608162)
03-09-2011 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
03-09-2011 5:14 AM


Re: Comments?
Frako, all that the graph shows is our(U.S. position as a whole relative to other Countries as a whole.) It does not reflect individual achievement.
Look at the graph once again the vertical axis represents average lifespan, the horizontal axises represents average income.
but what insures that your money will remain stable?
Every country member of the EU
What power keeps Slovenija safe?
No one can find it on the map of the world , nato pact, eu, and the slovenian mentality you mess with one of us you mess with all 2 million of us
ranting about unemployment and low wages abroad.
Well yea the recession hit us hard unemployment is up to 10% tough not the educated ones mostly those whiteout education or low education our calcification the hard to employ people
Nobody ever told me that capitalism could be so harsh! I suppose that there are no guarantees in life, however.
Yea capitalism sucks for the majority, its grate for people like me tough. If i had a vote back then when we split from Yugoslavia i would have voted to split but no change to capitalism.
As for the recession we all know ho started that u Americans, and the idiots who thought that a country that is in debt is a good thing.
, will have to scramble and work harder
well the way i understand it u Americans already work to hard, we have a limit on how much time you can spend at the workplace and heavy fines for the ones who try to slave drive their workers. 40 hrs a weak max and a max of 20 hrs overtime a month, and max of 180 hrs overtime a year. You dont live to work you work to live.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 197 (608165)
03-09-2011 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-06-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Comments?
The decline in middle class living standards in the West is considered inevitable by some:
Link
Link writes:
Western Europeans and Americans are about to suffer a profound shock. For the past 30 years governments have explained that, while they can no longer protect jobs through traditional forms of state intervention such as subsidies and tariffs, they can expand and reform education to maximise opportunity. If enough people buckle down to acquiring higher-level skills and qualifications, Europeans and Americans will continue to enjoy rising living standards. If they work hard enough, each generation can still do better than its parents. All that is required is to bring schools up to scratch and persuade universities to teach "marketable" skills. That is the thinking behind Michael Gove's policies and those of all his recent predecessors as education secretary.
But the financial meltdown of 2008 and the subsequent squeeze on incomes is slowly revealing an awful truth. As figures out last week from the Office for National Statistics show, real UK wages have not risen since 2005, the longest sustained freeze in living standards since the 1920s. While it has not hit the elite in banking, the freeze affects most of the middle class as much as the working class. This is not a blip, nor the result of educational shortcomings. In the US, which introduced mass higher education long before Britain, the average graduate's purchasing power has barely risen in 30 years. Just as education failed to deliver social democratic promises of social equality and mobility, so it will fail to deliver neoliberal promises of universal opportunity for betterment.
"Knowledge work", supposedly the west's salvation, is now being exported like manual work. A global mass market in unskilled labour is being quickly succeeded by a market in middle-class work, particularly for industries, such as electronics, in which so much hope of employment opportunities and high wages was invested. As supply increases, employers inevitably go to the cheapest source. A chip designer in India costs 10 times less than a US one. The neoliberals forgot to read (or re-read) Marx. "As capital accumulates the situation of the worker, be his payment high or low, must grow worse."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-06-2011 8:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 7 of 197 (608205)
03-09-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-06-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Comments?
Does anyone else feel as if the middle class in the united States is essentially between a rock and a hard place? In other words, the wealthy keep us down, while the competitive poor are always nipping at our heels, forcing us to scramble ever more to maintain our position in life.
I have a feeling that these things will balance out. Because of economic success in the US in the last century our goods have increased in price to the point that they are no longer competitive. When the rest of the world catches up (e.g. China) our goods will be competitive again and drive the economy.
For example, when the dollar was stroger than the yen it made more sense to completely build cars in Japan and pay the tariff. Now that the Japanese economy has surpassed our own it is cheaper to ship incomplete assemblies for the cheaper tariff and have cheaper labor complete the assembly in the US.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 197 (608208)
03-09-2011 11:53 AM


Phat writes:
Does anyone else feel as if the middle class in the united States is essentially between a rock and a hard place?
If so, only by choice. And if that is what they want, it is what they will get.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 03-10-2011 10:55 AM jar has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 9 of 197 (608210)
03-09-2011 12:25 PM


I hope things do even out. I have seen many smaller Plumbing companies in last year or so go out of business leaving only a handful of guys like me trying to compete. Many/most larger ones hire cheap and often illegal immigrants as help. Several are owned by minorities which help get them get govt bids, although the govt does require all contractors to use the e-verify system ensuring workers are legal to work here, which I like. It just don't seem like as level of a field as it was 3 yrs ago. I find myself moving toward more high-end quality matters type of work such as medical, health care, special needs facilities and homes. I am leaning this way as opposed to trying to diversify. Health care is big business and I am banking on it continuing to grow and there will be a niche I can specialize in.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 197 (608225)
03-09-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
03-09-2011 11:53 AM


jar writes:
Phat writes:
Does anyone else feel as if the middle class in the united States is essentially between a rock and a hard place?
If so, only by choice. And if that is what they want, it is what they will get.
What does this mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 11:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 2:03 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 197 (608227)
03-09-2011 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Straggler
03-09-2011 2:02 PM


Straggler writes:
jar writes:
Phat writes:
Does anyone else feel as if the middle class in the united States is essentially between a rock and a hard place?
If so, only by choice. And if that is what they want, it is what they will get.
What does this mean?
We live in the world we create.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:02 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:13 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 197 (608232)
03-09-2011 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-09-2011 2:03 PM


But we don't all have equal power to create the world we want do we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 2:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 2:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 197 (608234)
03-09-2011 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
03-09-2011 2:13 PM


Straggler writes:
But we don't all have equal power to create the world we want do we?
Huh?
The world, particularly the US is exactly how it is because the people voted to make it the way that it is.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:33 PM jar has replied
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 03-09-2011 3:31 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 197 (608237)
03-09-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
03-09-2011 2:18 PM


Equal Power?
jar writes:
We live in the world we create.
Straggler writes:
But we don't all have equal power to create the world we want do we?
Huh? The world, particularly the US is exactly how it is because the people voted to make it the way that it is.
Are you seriously suggesting that "the world" is exactly as it is due to everyone having an equal say (in the form of voting) as to how they think the world should be?
Are you seriously suggesting that the US is exactly as it is due to every US voter having an equal say as to how they think their country should be run?
You don't think how people vote might be influenced by those who have power over information (e.g. the media)? You don't think who actually gets made available to vote for has anything to do with who has the most financial backing?
jar writes:
We live in the world we create.
How much influence some people have over that world they inhabit is limited. To say the least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 2:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 03-09-2011 2:39 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 197 (608240)
03-09-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
03-09-2011 2:33 PM


Re: Equal Power?
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 2:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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