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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
Taq
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Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
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Message 1 of 440 (610267)
03-28-2011 8:56 PM


The title says it all. How does the Republican platform help the middle class? How do major tax cuts to the top 5% of wage earners help the middle class? How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help? How does repealing a law that prevents insurance companies from revoking insurance for sick kids help the middle class? How does banning abortions help the middle class? How does the fight against labor unions improve the middle class? How does the defunding of Planned Parenthood and the EPA help the middle class? How does a reduction in social security and medicare help the middle class?

What confuses me is how people like me (lower middle class) benefit from the laws and reforms that Republicans want to put in place. Can someone show me the light?

Note to moderator: I would think that this would fit in Coffee House. Even though it is unmoderated I still think a little peer review is called for.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:23 PM Taq has responded
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-29-2011 12:04 AM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 108 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 2:14 PM Taq has responded
 Message 144 by marc9000, posted 04-02-2011 9:46 PM Taq has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 440 (610269)
03-28-2011 10:10 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 440 (610270)
03-28-2011 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taq
03-28-2011 8:56 PM


Short sighted?
How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?

How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 8:56 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 03-28-2011 10:34 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 5 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 10:44 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 440 (610271)
03-28-2011 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:23 PM


Re: Short sighted?
Coyote writes:

How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?

How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?

By allowing us to actually invest in things that will benefit future generations.

The debt is not a major problem. The fact that much of it was simply wasted by truly stupid decisions is, but that is in the past and so now we will suffer from past stupid behavior.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:23 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:46 PM jar has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 5 of 440 (610272)
03-28-2011 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:23 PM


Re: Short sighted?
How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?

How does a balanced budget help grandchildren get health care after they lose their health insurance because they got sick? How does a federal balanced budget keep middle class families from filing bankruptcy because the bread winner had a heart attack at 55? How can we not afford 300 million dollars to fund Planned Parenthood for reproductive choices for middle class families but we can afford 300 million dollars to bomb the living fuck out of the Libyan army for a couple of weeks (although this isn't Republican specific, but hopefully you get the gist)? Why is it more important that people like Donald Trump be able to have a few more million in the bank but less important to take care of the needs of the elderly who aren't able to work?

The overarching question is why should middle class families vote for Republicans when more of the tax burden is moved to the middle class while they get fewer benefits out of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:23 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 440 (610273)
03-28-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
03-28-2011 10:34 PM


Re: Short sighted?
jar writes:

Coyote writes:

How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?

How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?

By allowing us to actually invest in things that will benefit future generations.

The debt is not a major problem. The fact that much of it was simply wasted by truly stupid decisions is, but that is in the past and so now we will suffer from past stupid behavior.


Sorry to have to break this news to you, but the government does not create or produce anything. The most it can do is take money from those who do produce and create, add a huge overhead, and then spend that money--wasting much of it on things that are more often contrary to the free market system.

Example: the Volt. If there was a market for that new-age Edsel there would be no need for government subsidies or coersion. The market would have developed it and run with it long ago.

Socialism is not the answer to our problems. How long do you think the folks who actually create and produce things will continue to do so when most of what they create and produce is taken away by force and given to those who do neither? That's the flaw in your system.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 03-28-2011 10:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 10:53 PM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-28-2011 10:57 PM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 03-28-2011 11:01 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-28-2011 11:45 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 7 of 440 (610274)
03-28-2011 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Short sighted?
Sorry to have to break this news to you, but the government does not create or produce anything. The most it can do is take money from those who do produce and create, add a huge overhead, and then spend that money--wasting much of it on things that are more often contrary to the free market system.

Then why do countries with social medicine pay way less per patient for better care compared to the American health care system?

Socialism is not the answer to our problems. How long do you think the folks who actually create and produce things will continue to do so when most of what they create and produce is taken away by force and given to those who do neither? That's the flaw in your system.

So kick grandma to the curb? Take away Medicare and burden a young family with either monumental insurance premiums or massive health care bills to keep grandma alive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:46 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 8 of 440 (610275)
03-28-2011 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Short sighted?
Coyote writes:

jar writes:

Coyote writes:

How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?

How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?

By allowing us to actually invest in things that will benefit future generations.

The debt is not a major problem. The fact that much of it was simply wasted by truly stupid decisions is, but that is in the past and so now we will suffer from past stupid behavior.


Sorry to have to break this news to you, but the government does not create or produce anything. The most it can do is take money from those who do produce and create, add a huge overhead, and then spend that money--wasting much of it on things that are more often contrary to the free market system.

Example: the Volt. If there was a market for that new-age Edsel there would be no need for government subsidies or coersion. The market would have developed it and run with it long ago.

Socialism is not the answer to our problems. How long do you think the folks who actually create and produce things will continue to do so when most of what they create and produce is taken away by force and given to those who do neither? That's the flaw in your system.

Utter crap. Sorry but that is not even close to reasonable.

The purpose of a government is to see to the common weal, and to act as the 100 ton gorilla that oversees and moderates the disease called capitalism.

Governments do produce, they produced the road systems, the rail systems, the communication systems. The produced the welfare system and social safety nets.

Today taxes are way too low and we need to return to a progressive tax structure, increase inheritance taxes and return to some regulated utility monopolies.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:46 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 440 (610276)
03-28-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:46 PM


It Takes More than Buzwords...
... to convince the just that they are wrong.

wasting much of it on things that are more often contrary to the free market system.

Who in the fuck gives a rat's ass about the God damned 'free market' system?

How long do you think the folks who actually create and produce things will continue to do so when most of what they create and produce is taken away by force and given to those who do neither? That's the flaw in your system.

Thank God no one's proposed this, then.

Sorry to have to break this news to you, but the government does not create or produce anything.

LOL. Care to back this up in any meaningful way?

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:46 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 11:17 PM Jon has responded
 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 11:34 PM Jon has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 10 of 440 (610277)
03-28-2011 11:07 PM


I don't want this to be a "bash the Republicans" thread, per se. Although I do not see the rationale behind the entire Republican platform there are planks I can agree with. For example, I do lean more towards gun rights and and a sensible budget (although our vision of a sensible budget does differ). I can see how those in the upper tax brackets are strongly Republican. That makes sense given the Republican philosophy. What baffles me is why the lower and middle class would vote Republican when their policies seem so detrimental to the lower and middle class.

Like I said, show me the light. If you can demonstrate to me that giving huge tax breaks to the top 2% of earners and spending massive amounts of money to bomb other countries while cutting social programs and increasing class sizes in public elementary schools will actually help the middle class then do it. I will be very impressed.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 03-28-2011 11:14 PM Taq has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 440 (610279)
03-28-2011 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taq
03-28-2011 11:07 PM


What baffles me is why the lower and middle class would vote Republican when their policies seem so detrimental to the lower and middle class.

I think it was the Micheal Moore flick "Capitalism, A Love Story" that addressed this. It is seemingly because of the "american dream". Everyone has the notion that if they work hard enough, they too can have it all, thanks to this wonderful thing we call capitalism. So when they DO finally become the rich fuck of their dreams, Uncle Sam will be good to them. The only thing is: the american dream is a sham. If you weren't born on Wall Street, you don't get to Wall Street.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 11:07 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 11:27 PM hooah212002 has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 12 of 440 (610280)
03-28-2011 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
03-28-2011 11:01 PM


Re: It Takes More than Buzwords...
Who in the fuck gives a rat's ass about the God damned 'free market' system?

There is a lot to be said for a regulated free market (which seems to be a bit of an oxymoron). There needs to be protections in place for labor and environmental impacts. From what I have seen, Republicans want to remove those protections. They even balk at raising the minimum wage to levels that would allow for a modicum of respect for the those who have the will to work instead of living off the dole.

At the same time, competition can drive effeciency and innovation. There are positive aspects as long as we can control the negative aspects.

LOL. Care to back this up in any meaningful way?

I know. That one took me aback too. If Republicans are so against socialism and the products of government perhaps they should stay off of those socialist roads they take to work and stick to the private ones.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 03-28-2011 11:01 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 03-28-2011 11:34 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 13 of 440 (610281)
03-28-2011 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by hooah212002
03-28-2011 11:14 PM


I think it was the Micheal Moore flick "Capitalism, A Love Story" that addressed this. It is seemingly because of the "american dream". Everyone has the notion that if they work hard enough, they too can have it all, thanks to this wonderful thing we call capitalism. So when they DO finally become the rich fuck of their dreams, Uncle Sam will be good to them. The only thing is: the american dream is a sham. If you weren't born on Wall Street, you don't get to Wall Street.

As much as I appreciate the spotlight that Moore can shine on issues that need attention I just wish it wasn't Moore. His movies are like a fleck of gold in a mound of dog shit.

My own experience is that families just want to not worry. Growing up I saw proud, hard working husbands on farms and ranches avoid hospitals and die young because they didn't want to bankrupt their family. Republicans want to perpetuate this system, and then base their rationale on the idea that socialism is for lazy people like Coyote did above. Even worse, they want to make the system worse by doing away with state laws that protect health insurance customers by allowing health insurance companies to sell across state lines allowing them to choose the state with the fewest consumer protections. That is the Republican version of health care reform. I can see why this benefits the rich and health insurance investors, but how does this help middle class Americans? Can't figure it out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 03-28-2011 11:14 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 440 (610282)
03-28-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
03-28-2011 11:17 PM


Re: It Takes More than Buzwords...
There is a lot to be said for a regulated free market (which seems to be a bit of an oxymoron). There needs to be protections in place for labor and environmental impacts. From what I have seen, Republicans want to remove those protections.

Any and every market system is a disease and plague upon humanity and a destroyer of human rights, freedoms, and dignities.

At the same time, competition can drive effeciency and innovation.

Efficiency is the evil that fuels the fires of Hell. Innovation is salt in a gashing wound.

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 11:17 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 15 of 440 (610283)
03-28-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
03-28-2011 11:01 PM


Socialism?
Governments do produce, they produced the road systems, the rail systems, the communication systems. The produced the welfare system and social safety nets.

That is not "production." Sorry. That is consumption.

And that consumption comes, after a huge overhead, when they take by force money from those who do produce. Where do you think they get the money to spend, if not through taxes?

If you can't see the difference between these two concepts then you are probably a socialist who thinks that you can keep taking from the productive forever, and get away with it. At some point the productive will go elsewhere, if they can, or simply stop producing. Look at the Soviet Union and their five-year plans. The top-down command economy doesn't work for long.

There has to be a balance between what the government takes and what the productive keep to grow the economy and create jobs. Socialists generally want to get all the golden eggs, often by force, and that simply doesn't work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 03-28-2011 11:01 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 03-28-2011 11:39 PM Coyote has responded
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