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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 330 (626078)
07-26-2011 11:31 PM


What is the biblical support for the idea of the 'Rapture'?

A while ago the glorified DJ Howard Camping predicted a Rapture to occur on May 21 of this year, with a final coming of Jesus to take place several months later in October. The prediction itself, of course, was totally unfounded malarkey. But what about the idea behind it? Is there any biblical support for a pre-tribulation Rapture?

quote:
Wills in Head and Heart (2007):

It was the total schema, too, that made Darby always refer to the secret Rapture. Not secret in the sense that no one would notice when thousands of people disappeared. But they would not know the explanation, since Jesus would not be seen except by those meeting him "in the air." This secret coming of Jesus was in contrast with his final coming in glory, which will manifest his power to all. Once the whole framework was in place, the Dispensationalists searched for biblical texts that can be made to conform with it. The principal one is from Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians 4.17. The Thessalonians, who expected the imminent return of Christ, worried about their fellow Christians who had already died. Paul assured them that the living and dead would both be swept up to meet the returning Jesus: "Then we, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them [the dead] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
     One trouble with the use of this passage can be seen in the immediately preceding verse (16): "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first." That is hardly a secret coming.
...
     The other favorite passage of the Darbyites is Matthew 24.40–41: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." ... But this passage, too, takes its meaning from the immediately preceding verse. Describing all the people who refused to hear Noah and join him on the ark, it says: "And [they] knew not until the flood came and took them all away." The section speaks of destruction, not deliverance. To be taken away is to be destroyed. Being left behind, like Noah and his family, is the desirable thing. (pp. 365–366)


Over at Rapture Ready, several supposed citations in support of a pre-tribulation Rapture are given in the first few of their paragraphs; here are some of them:

quote:
1 Corinthians 15:51–53 (NRSV):

Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.


quote:
Matthew 25:13 (NRSV):

Keep awake therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.


quote:
Revelation 12:6 (NRSV):

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NRSV):

He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God.


quote:
Daniel 9:27 (NRSV):

He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.'


As should be clear, none of these really appear to support the notion of a pre-tribulation Rapture. But are there others? Are there other passages that actually support the idea of a pre-tribulation Rapture as marketed by folk like Camping?

If so, it would sure be interesting to know what they are.

Jon
__________
Wills, G. (2007) Head and Heart: American Christianities. New York: Penguin Press.

Edited by Jon, : passage quotes; clarity


Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3932
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 330 (626079)
07-27-2011 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
07-26-2011 11:31 PM


How about quoting the cited verses, in your message 1?
Might as well have the verses in the message.

Adminnemooseus


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 Message 1 by Jon, posted 07-26-2011 11:31 PM Jon has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 330 (626080)
07-27-2011 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
07-27-2011 12:25 AM


Re: How about quoting the cited verses, in your message 1?
Emended

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3932
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 4 of 330 (626082)
07-27-2011 1:32 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2883 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 5 of 330 (626202)
07-27-2011 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
07-26-2011 11:31 PM


i think you have to9 be a protestant to understand that stuff. makes no sense to me.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 330 (626296)
07-28-2011 10:28 AM


Re: Bogus Pre-tribulation Doctrine
Most evangelicals are pre-tribulationists. They quote mine a few verses out of context in order to propagate this falsehood.

One must corroborate all scriptures so as to follow a sequence of prophesied events in order to arrive at what scripture teaches on this.

One sequential order of events debunking the pre-tribbers is Mark 13:24-28 in Jesus's Olivet Discourse which clearly has the gathering up of the saints from earth to heaven after the tribulation time. Other scriptures clearly corroborate this. I don't have time now to cover these, but perhaps when I get to it.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 7 of 330 (626411)
07-29-2011 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
07-26-2011 11:31 PM


As should be clear, none of these really appear to support the notion of a pre-tribulation Rapture. But are there others? Are there other passages that actually support the idea of a pre-tribulation Rapture as marketed by folk like Camping?

If we establish up front that Harold Camping is irrelevant to the subject, then I'll take on the challenge of demonstrating the ground for such a hope. But if you are expecting a discussion about Harold Campingism I'll pass.

I didn't encourage Camping to go out there and predict that stuff.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 07-26-2011 11:31 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 07-29-2011 9:06 AM jaywill has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 330 (626412)
07-29-2011 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jaywill
07-29-2011 8:46 AM


If we establish up front that Harold Camping is irrelevant to the subject, then I'll take on the challenge of demonstrating the ground for such a hope. But if you are expecting a discussion about Harold Campingism I'll pass.

Camping was an example; you're not required to discuss him and you're certainly not required to defend him.

I'd very much like to hear your own defense of the a pre-tribulation rapture based on scriptures.

So, please, if you would be so kind...

Jon


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 9 of 330 (626445)
07-29-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
07-29-2011 9:06 AM


Selective Rapture
Camping was an example; you're not required to discuss him and you're certainly not required to defend him.

I appreciate that. Thanks


I'd very much like to hear your own defense of the a pre-tribulation rapture based on scriptures.

So, please, if you would be so kind...

Okay. But I think I will deal with a few popular misconceptions as a way of introduction.

When it comes to the subject of the catching away from the earth of believers, or "Rapture" one of the most common mistakes is this:

Bibles students expect that any rapture must of necessarily include ALL of the believers, ie. the entire church in one rapture. Because of this assumption they are able to find passages which indicate a pre-tribulation rapture on one hand, and others are able to demonstrate a post-tribulation rapture.

Both schools have some very legitimate points. But because they assume that any rapture must be of the entire Body of believers they must uphold those passages which support their view and suppress the passages which contradict.

So if one is convinced that the whole church must go up pre-tribulation style, one will emphasize those clear passages. And when other contradictory passages are shown him. these he must twist, suppress, re-interpret is questionable ways.

Conversely if one is convinced that the whole church must be raptured post-tribulation style, he will point out the supporting passages. Those passages which seemed to contradict, he must suppress, ignore, discard, twist, or reinterpret.

The assumption both schools is that there can only be one rapture to include the whole body of the church on earth at one time.

There are godly Christians in both schools of understanding. And both are partially correct.

There is another way to go about solving the problem. And I think it is the most logical and scriptural. That is the understanding of selective rapture. Some saints will be taken before the great tribulation starts. And some will be taken after or towards the end of the great tribulation.

That is all I will write in this post.
Do you understand what I have just said ?
You don't have to agree. But do you understand me so far?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 330 (626457)
07-29-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
07-26-2011 11:31 PM


Jon writes:

But what about the idea behind it? Is there any biblical support for a pre-tribulation Rapture?

Dunno. But I've got the (dubious?) honour of being the EvC board member who probably lives closest to the source of the idea. John Darby's pulpit is only about 15 minutes drive from my house.

quote:
John Nelson Darby, considered by many classical dispensationalists to be the father of dispensationalism, first proposed and popularized the pre-Tribulation Rapture in 1827. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren movements in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, especially with movements and teachings associated with Christian eschatology and fundamentalism, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pre-Tribulation Rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members.

Wikipedia


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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 330 (626526)
07-29-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jaywill
07-29-2011 12:13 PM


Re: Selective Rapture
Some saints will be taken before the great tribulation starts. And some will be taken after or towards the end of the great tribulation.

But this still involves the same problems; you still have the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture—no matter how incomplete the event—that requires supporting by the biblical texts.

For the moment I'm not concerned in the texts that support a post-tribulation rapture, or a mid-tribulation rapture, or any other rapture—again, no matter how incomplete—besides the pre-tribulation one.

In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

But do you understand me so far?

Of course; and I hope before you go any further that you'll help me understand some of the points I had difficulty with.

Jon


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 12 of 330 (626571)
07-30-2011 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
07-29-2011 5:44 PM


Re: Selective Rapture
In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

1.) Rev. 3:10

2.) The entire 14th chapter of Revelation.

3.) The 12th and 13th chapter of Revelation.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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 Message 11 by Jon, posted 07-29-2011 5:44 PM Jon has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 330 (626604)
07-30-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
07-30-2011 1:00 AM


Re: Selective Rapture
Jon writes:

In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

Rev. 3:10

How?

Jon writes:

In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

The entire 14th chapter of Revelation.

How?

Jon writes:

In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

The 12th and 13th chapter of Revelation.

How?


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 330 (626627)
07-30-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
07-29-2011 5:44 PM


Re: Selective Rapture
Jon writes:

what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?

There are none which support a partial end time rapture of Christian era believers. If one wants to isolate phrases from any written literature or historical records one can allege support for anything one wants to support. No support is such void of context.

If one thinks otherwise it's up to the one to cite it in conjunction with context.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Clarify message

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 07-29-2011 5:44 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 15 of 330 (626699)
07-30-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jon
07-30-2011 11:23 AM


Re: Selective Rapture
Revelation 3:10 is a promise attached to a condition. Since the condition has been satisfied the reward of the promise is to be dispensed.

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."

1.) The promise is to keep these Christians "out of the hour of trial". It is not merely to keep them through the trial or to keep them from the trial. Rather it is a promise to keep them out of the very hour of the trial. This must mean to be taken out of the world.

2.) The promise is not automatic to the church universal. It is a promise for to those who have "kept the word of My endurance". It is therefore conditional. That implies that a selection is involved. So since a selection is involved according to who the Lord deems as having kept the word of His endurance, it must be a partial rapture, involving a remnant rather than the entire church.

3.) The trial must be the great tribulation. It is the trial which "is about to come upon the whole inhhabited earth, to try them" . This should indicate the great tribulation -

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occured from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur. And unless those daus had been cut short, no flesh would be saved ..." (Matt. 24:21,22a)

To be kept out of the the very hour of this world wide trial is to be taken out of the earth before the hour begins. The passage is about a pre-great tribulation rapture.

Revelation 12 concerns the rapture of a corporate manchild followed by 42 months of great persecution of those saints left upon the earth. I will not go into a full exposition of Revelation 12 now.

But it should be noted that the manchild who is raptured is a collective unit, a collective rather than an individual person. This is proved by the plural pronouns "they", "their", "them" plus the word "brothers" in verses 10 and 11.

Briefly then, after the corporate man-child is caught up to God and to His throne (12:5), these words are uttered in verse 10,11:

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (12:10,11)

The words "brothers", "them", "they", "their", "they" point back to the man-child who was "caught up to God and to His throne".

It is a pre-tribulation rapture because the result of the man-child's being caught up is the expulsion of Satan down to the earth to be limited in his movement to that earthly sphere alone:

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (v.12)

Those in heaven have reason to rejoice, including the raptured corporate man-child. But at the same time the earth is to face WOE. This is the woe of the devil's coming down to be limited to the earth, and only having a "short time" left to damage God's people and oppose God's purpose.

This "short time" is the great tribulation. And it is the short time of the forty-two months that the beast has to speak great things and blasphemies (Rev. 13:5). It is also the "short time" of the 1,260 days which the dragon of Satan persecutes the woman who brought forth the man-child who still remains upon the earth.

" ... and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, whre she has a plcae there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand twohundred and sixty days." (v.5b,6)

The sequence of events prove that this rapture of the collective unit called the man-child, is a pre-great tribulation rapture. In fact this rapture is really a CAUSE for the great tribulation to start. For it is at the rapture of this man-child that the serving angels of the saints like Michael and his angels war in heaven and drive Satan the accuser finally out of heavenlies.

The third evidence is in Revelation 14. Here again I do not launch a full exposition. But it should be noted that the terms firstfruits (Rev. 14:4) ) and "harvest" (14:15) strongly imply TIMING. Firstfruits are taken up to God first as a remant or minority. Latter a general harvest is taken up in rapture.

The place of their taking differs and the time of their taking differs. First firstfruits ripen early and are raptured. Following this the general majority or harvest is ripened and raptured (14:14-16).

In chapter 14 in between the appearance of the firstfruits in heaven and the taking up of the harvest to the cloud are a general summary of the events of the great tribulation. This indicates that the firstfruits are taken prior to the start of the great tribulation and the harvest majority is taken towards the end. Below notice how events # 1 and # 6 are respectively before the discribed great tribulation and at its conclusion.

The following was copied from another discussion I had.


There are two pre-tribulation raptures from Revelation not including the promise of 3:10. One is of overcoming saints who have died. And the other is of overcoming saints who are living just before the great tribulation. Both raptures will take place around the same pre-tribulation time.

1.) The Manchild in Rev. 12. (Those overcomers who need resurrection)
2.) The Firstfruits in Rev 14. (Those overcomers who are physically alive)

In this post I will focus on the Firstfruits as a pre-tribulation rapture. The focus of the rapture of the Manchild is military. The focus of the rapture of the Firstfruits is the Father's satisfaction.

The Manchild's rapture is a strategic move to tip the balance of spiritual battle in the heavenlies, finally allowing the good angels to drive Satan and his angels to the earth for good. Satan can no longer appear before God accusing His saints, as is seen in the book of Job.

The Firstfruits' rapture seems purely for the satisfaction of the Father. That is His pleasure that in the end times, some living, following the Lamb where ever He may go. They sing a unique song which no one can learn.

And that song signifies the special experience that they have. And that is of living on the earth and going right up into the third heavens by the pleasingness of their spiritual walk.

"These early overcomers will be the first-ripe ones in God's field. Hence, they will be reaped before the harvest as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. The harvest will be reaped later, in vv. 14-16. This means that the overcomers will be raptured to the heavens before the harvest, just as firstfruits of the good land were reaped and brought into the temple of God before the harvest (Lev. 23:10-11; Exo. 23:19). The event recorded in vv.6-13, all of which will take place during the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21), indicate clearly and prove strongly that the first overcomers, the firstfruits in vv. 1-5, will be raptured before the great tribulation, and the harvest in vv. 14-16, composed of the majority of the believers, will be raptured at the end of the great tribulation. [footnote 4(2) of Rev. 14. Recovery Version Bible ]

I can understand people considering ch. 14 as a chronological continuation of ch. 13. However, I think it is better to consider 13 as connected to 12 and 14 as a corner vision communicating these matters:

1.) Pretribulation rapture of Firstfruits (14:1-5)
2.) Angelic announcement of the eternal gospel to fear the Creator (vv.6-7)
3.) The fall of religious Babylon (v.8)
4.) Warning against worship of Antichrist during great tribulation (vv.9-12)
5.) Blessing on martyrs during great tribulation (v. 13)
6.) Harvest of believers near the end of the great tribulation (vv.14-16)
7.) Gathering of grapes (evildoers) at end of great tribulation (vv.17-20)

Chapter 14 is therefore a concise summary of the end times bounded on one end by a pretribulation rapture and on the other end with a end tribulation rapture and the battle of Armageddon.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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