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Author Topic:   What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 306 (638266)
10-21-2011 3:54 AM


There is much confusion about what the Bible says about the flood of Noah.

Genesis 1:9, 10 tells us the water was gathered to one place and dry land appeared which was called earth, or dry land if you prefer.

There is no place that is stated that the land was divided prior to the flood of Noah.

Genesis 6:7 tells us the LORD was going to destroy all creatures, both man, and beast, including the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air.

Genesis 6:8 tells us, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:13, 14 tells us God told Noah to build an ark and the following verses told him the size of the ark to build.

Noah was told who his passengers would be.

Chapter 7 tells us that the passengers arrived and were boarded.

Genesis 7:11,12 tells us that the fountains of the deep was opened up and the windows of heaven were opened and it began to rain and did so for 40 days and 40 nights.

The following verses tells us that the water was upon the earth 150 days before it began to receed, which took another 150 days.

Genesis 10:25 tells us that the earth was divided in the days of Peleg.

That being the case there would be no worldwide layer of anything left by the flood.

In Message 1 iceage said:

quote:
But just how does a single deluge transport immobile animals and marine plants up the higher elevations and even sometimes deposited marine fossils in several different horizons in a single column?

I will argue the Bible does not teach the flood transported immobile animals to higher elevations..

In Message 26 Buzsaw states:

quote:
Imo, since the ocean crusts average much thinner than the continental crusts by about 6 or 7 times thinner, likely the massive flood waters flowing to the lower thinner crust valleys caused a great amount of tectonic movement of both the larger 7 plates and the more numerous smaller plates causing tectonic plate collisions and uplift etc. This activity would no doubt do a great deal of mountain forming including the larger ranges which tend to be near the coastlines of the oceans, imo making flood sense.

I will argue the Bible does not teach tectronic plate collisions took place during the flood.

In Message 95 Buzsaw states:

quote:
1. I believe Mt Everest was formed by a collision of two plates, imo caused by flood induced tectonic activity.
2. Some volcanoe peaks were heat induced. If you are referring to the canopy theory that would be a different topic.

I will argue the Bible does not teach the flood induced tectronic activity Buzsaw proclaims.

In Message 22 Taz said:

quote:
A violent world wide flood that covered even the highest mountain top we would expect to distribute things very evenly (that is if it's possible for a flood to bring up sea shells to some thousands and thousands of feet high). These same fossils are found on the sides of some mountains while are found on tops of other mountains. These locations are some thousands of feet high in variation.

I will argue there was no violent world wide flood. But that there was a world wide flood.

quote:
Geophysically, we begin with a pre-Flood earth differentiated into core, mantle, and crust, with the crust horizontally differentiated into sialic craton and mafic ocean floor. The Flood was initiated as slabs of oceanic floor broke loose and subducted along thousands of kilometers of pre-Flood continental margins. Deformation of the mantle by these slabs raised the temperature and lowered the viscosity of the mantle in the vicinity of the slabs. A resulting thermal runaway of the slabs through the mantle led to meters-per-second mantle convection. Cool oceanic crust which descended to the core/mantle boundary induced rapid reversals of the earth’s magnetic field. Large plumes originating near the core/mantle boundary expressed themselves at the surface as fissure eruptions and flood basalts. Flow induced in the mantle also produced rapid extension along linear belts throughout the sea floor and rapid horizontal displacement of continents. Upwelling magma jettisoned steam into the atmosphere causing intense global rain. Rapid emplacement of isostatically lighter mantle material raised the level of the ocean floor, displacing ocean water onto the continents. When virtually all the pre-Flood oceanic floor had been replaced with new, less-dense, less-subductable, oceanic crust, catastrophic plate motion stopped. Subsequent cooling increased the density of the new ocean floor, producing deeper ocean basins and a reservoir for post-Flood oceans.
Source

I will argue the Bible does not support the catastrophic global flood described at the site and in their literature, this quote was taken from.

quote:
Flood geology (also creation geology or diluvial geology) is the interpretation of the geological history of the Earth in terms of the global flood described in Genesis 6–9
Source

I will argue that the geological history of the Earth is not taught in the text to be produced by the flood of Noah.

I will argue the text found in the KJV , LXX, and Hebrew Text does not support any of the above arguments.

I will argue the text found in the KJV , LXX, and Hebrew Text does support a world wide flood.

I will also argue that the texts support an extended period of existence in which all the land mass was covered with water other than the flood of Noah in which all life forms died.

God Bless,


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by kbertsche, posted 10-21-2011 2:21 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 22 by IamJoseph, posted 10-21-2011 10:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
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Message 2 of 306 (638267)
10-21-2011 3:59 AM


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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 3 of 306 (638327)
10-21-2011 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
10-21-2011 3:54 AM


ICANT--You seem to infer that there was only a single land mass at the time of Noah's flood. This begs some questions:
1) roughly how long ago did this flood occur?
2) presumably, the land was divided into continents subsequent to the flood? Do you have a rough timescale for this?
3) how does your sequence and timescale of these events compare to the modern geologic record?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 3:54 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 4:56 PM kbertsche has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 4 of 306 (638351)
10-21-2011 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by kbertsche
10-21-2011 2:21 PM


Single land mass
Hi kbertsche,

kbertsche writes:

ICANT--You seem to infer that there was only a single land mass at the time of Noah's flood. This begs some questions:

I am not infering anything.

I am stating that according to the text recorded in the Bible in the book of Genesis that the land mass was in one place at the time of the flood.

quote:
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


God called the dry land ארץ.

The water was in one place which would require the dry land mass to be in one place.

There is no information about the sea level of that land mass or what the highest point was on that land mass.

I can find no place the Earth was divided until after the flood.

There are those who have claimed it was done during the flood (YEC beliefs.).

There is no such support found in the text. If you have some and would like to present it please do.

I find information where the ארץ was divided during the days of Peleg which was after the tower of Babel.

quote:
10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

The word Earth is translated from the same Hebrew word that the word Earth in Genesis 1:10 and 1:1 was translated from.

The word Peleg is from the Hebrew word פלג as is the word divided in Genesis 10:25.

The word פלג simply means division.

Therefore according to the text the dry land mass as well that existed in Genesis 1:10 was divided in the days of Peleg which was after the tower of Babel.

If you disagree then present your argument.

kebertsche writes:

1) roughly how long ago did this flood occur?

The text does not say when the flood of Noah took place.

kbertsche writes:

2) presumably, the land was divided into continents subsequent to the flood? Do you have a rough timescale for this?

The text does not say when the land mass was divided.

kbertsche writes:

2)3) how does your sequence and timescale of these events compare to the modern geologic record?

I really don't know as I have never been able to have a meaningful conversation with anyone about what the timescale of those events would be.

Remember I am argueing as to what the text in the Bibles put forth in the OP has recorded in them.

If that could be settled then we could get into speculation of how those events took place.

Without a foundation there is nothing to build upon.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by kbertsche, posted 10-21-2011 2:21 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 5:01 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 10-21-2011 5:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 8 by Coragyps, posted 10-21-2011 5:42 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 10-21-2011 8:22 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 5 of 306 (638352)
10-21-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
10-21-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Single land mass
No. The water being in one place does not require that the land be in one place.

BUT... that also has NOTHING to do with the Biblical Flood myths.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 5:18 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 6 of 306 (638355)
10-21-2011 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
10-21-2011 5:01 PM


Re: Single land mass
Hi jar,

jar writes:

No. The water being in one place does not require that the land be in one place.

Well the text was talking about dry land there was wet land under all the water.

But if you had 2 islands protuding out of that body of water you would have two places there was no water.

With one island you would have the water in one place and the dry land mass in another place.

jar writes:

BUT... that also has NOTHING to do with the Biblical Flood myths.

But it has everything to do with the myths that have been put forth in all the flood threads I have read, here at EvC.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 5:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 5:43 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20746
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 306 (638357)
10-21-2011 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
10-21-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Single land mass
Hi ICANT,

How do you exclude this interpretation:

quote:
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place,...

The waters gathered together on the Earth's surface covering the entire globe.

quote:
...and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Then dry land rose above the water's surface in various places around the globe.

quote:
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas...

God called the "gathering together of the water" seas. That's seas, not sea, as in more than one sea.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:00 PM Percy has replied

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 306 (638359)
10-21-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
10-21-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Single land mass
I really don't know as I have never been able to have a meaningful conversation with anyone about what the timescale of those events would be.

We can have one here, then. Am I correct in saying that Genesis claims that there were humans at the time of the big flood, when all the land of the planet was in one place? We have some pretty solid clues as to timescales if that is so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:08 PM Coragyps has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 9 of 306 (638360)
10-21-2011 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ICANT
10-21-2011 5:18 PM


Re: Single land mass
Again, what you say is simply false.

The text says that all the water was gathered together. There could be an unlimited number of islands or land masses.

And again, Genesis 1 has nothing to do with the Flood myths, it is a whole different story written at a whole different time by a whole different culture to serve entirely different purposes and has NOTHING to do with the flood myths.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 5:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:13 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 306 (638369)
10-21-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
10-21-2011 5:39 PM


Re: Single land mass
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

The waters gathered together on the Earth's surface covering the entire globe.

The waters did not have to gather together on the Earth's surface to cover the entire Earth.

quote:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

According to the text the water already covered the face of the Earth as the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters that covered the Earth.

quote:
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

ויאמר and he is saying
אלהים Elohim
יקו collect
המים the waters
מתחת from under
חשמים the heavens
אל to
מקום place
אחד one
ותראה and seen
היבשה the dry land
ויהי and it became
כז so

The land mass appeared because the water was gathered into one place revealing the dry land.

Percy writes:

God called the "gathering together of the water" seas. That's seas, not sea, as in more than one sea.

ימים is a singular masculine verb meaning sea. It is not plural but has been translated plural many times as mankind can not think of the earth with one sea so it had to be seas.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 10-21-2011 5:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 10-22-2011 7:31 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 306 (638370)
10-21-2011 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
10-21-2011 5:42 PM


Re: Single land mass
Hi Coragyps,

Coragyps writes:

We can have one here, then. Am I correct in saying that Genesis claims that there were humans at the time of the big flood,

The text of Genesis states there were people on Earth prior to the flood of Noah.

It also places man on Earth as the first life form before the Earth was covered with the water we find at Genesis 1:2.

So present your argument.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Coragyps, posted 10-21-2011 5:42 PM Coragyps has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 12 of 306 (638371)
10-21-2011 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
10-21-2011 5:43 PM


Re: Single land mass
Hi jar,

jar writes:

The text says that all the water was gathered together. There could be an unlimited number of islands or land masses.

Does the following text say the water was gathered into one place?

quote:
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

You can check it in the Hebrew in my post to Percy.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 8:17 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-22-2011 10:40 AM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 13 of 306 (638372)
10-21-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
10-21-2011 8:13 PM


Re: Single land mass
Again, that has nothing to do with whether all the land was connected or not.

In addition, Genesis 1 has NOTHING to do with the flood myths, was written hundreds of years after the flood myths and by an entirely different milleu, era, people and tradition.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:33 PM jar has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 14 of 306 (638373)
10-21-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
10-21-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Single land mass
The text does not say when the flood of Noah took place.
...
The text does not say when the land mass was divided.

So how do you interpret the biblical genealogies which YECs use to argue that these events are recent? Do you think many generations are skipped? Or do you think the numbers are stylized? Or something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2011 8:43 PM kbertsche has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 15 of 306 (638375)
10-21-2011 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
10-21-2011 8:17 PM


Re: Can you answer a simple question?
Hi jar,

Does the following text say the water was gathered into one place?

quote:
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 10-21-2011 8:37 PM ICANT has replied

  
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