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Author Topic:   Is Theism arrogant?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 60 (254527)
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


I'm concerned here with the claim of arrogance.
Some have said, I think, that any claim that makes an assumption about what people think or feel is arrogant, and that the claims of theism do this.
We need to make a distinction: there are claims about (a)what people ought to think or feel and (b)what people do in fact think or feel.
Some claims about what people ought to think or feel:
Everyone ought to believe in God.
Everyone ought to believe in TOE.
Claims about what people do in fact think or feel:
Everyone feels the presence of God.
Everyone has secret fears.
Anyone who claims to feel the presence of God is deluded. What they feel, without knowing it, is the cultural pressure to be a believer.
Any difference in the arrogance levels of these claims?
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-24-2005 05:07 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-28-2005 08:21 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 10-28-2005 9:15 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 5:33 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 6 by mikehager, posted 10-29-2005 11:16 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 10-30-2005 10:32 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 13 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 11:02 PM robinrohan has not replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 60 (255305)
10-28-2005 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


Good Topic
This is a good topic, Robin. I would leave out the quote by Mike Hagar and simply rewrite the O.P. in your own words. Are you suggesting that Theism is exclusive? (or claims to be so)
Lets reword this....I am anxious to comment as a non admin participant!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 10-24-2005 6:05 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by robinrohan, posted 10-28-2005 9:21 AM AdminPhat has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 60 (255307)
10-28-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
10-28-2005 9:15 AM


Re: Good Topic
OK, I changed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 10-28-2005 9:15 AM AdminPhat has not replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 60 (255456)
10-29-2005 4:42 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 60 (255459)
10-29-2005 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


Ignorance, not arrognace
Some have said, I think, that any claim that makes an assumption about what people think or feel is arrogant, and that the claims of theism do this.
I don’t think it is arrogance, but I do think it is ignorance to assume that everyone should think or feel the same way about anything.
Everyone feels the presence of God.
Everyone has secret fears.
Anyone who claims to feel the presence of God is deluded. What they feel, without knowing it, is the cultural pressure to be a believer.
Any difference in the arrogance levels of these claims?
Everyone feels the presence of God is an ignorant claim as far as I am concerned, how anyone comes to that conclusion is beyond me. The claimant simply has to look around EvC to realise that many do not feel the presence of God. Thus, it suggests to me that this is an ignorant claim as the claimant hasn’t thought it through well enough.
That everyone has secret fears is a possibility, I don’t see this as arrogant or ignorant as everyone I have spoken to has a fear of something, I have yet to meet anyone who doesn’t have a fear of something. While this could be ignorance on my part as I obviously haven’t spoken to everyone that ever lived, I do feel that it is difficult not to be afraid of something. I feel that there are some things that everyone must dread happening, for example, the fear that your child may die before you, or the fear of dying through a long debilitating illness, are just a couple of things I believe would be universal fears, although I know I am being ignorant claiming this.
I have claimed many times here that anyone who feels the presence of God is deluded, I normally say this to stimulate some debate which doesn’t always work.
But, being realistic, while I do think that many people who believe in God are certainly deluded, I do think it is much more complicated than that. I think that there is a psychological explanation for it, but I don’t know what it is. What I do know is that a personal religious experience is an extremely powerful occurrence. As I have said here before, my mate looked a certainty to be dead within a couple of years through drink and drugs, but he had a religious experience and is now a devout Christian, doesn’t touch any drink or drugs and does charity work in the name of Jesus at a rehab centre (last I heard anyway). So, something has happened there. I do think that people in similar situations are of a certain type, susceptible to addictions; IOW they swap one addiction for another.
But, is this arrogance or ignorance on my part? I wouldn’t say it is either, because I was open to the idea that I could be wrong for a very long time. I did believe in God for a very long time, so it is not as if I have just suddenly decided that I am right and theists are wrong.
Any claim that says everyone must feel or think exactly the same is ignorant unless the claimant provides satisfactory data to support their stance. They also have to keep in mind that one negative falsifies their claim. However, convincing them that this negative example is an honest one will be extremely difficult.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 10-24-2005 6:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 6 of 60 (255474)
10-29-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


Arrogance
It was me that made the claim that robinrohan has taken issue with. I do not think that he or she has clearly understood me.
Some have said, I think, that any claim that makes an assumption about what people think or feel is arrogant, and that the claims of theism do this.
I never said that any claim that makes an assumption about what people think is arrogant. I asserted that making claims about the contents of another person's mind in the face of direct contrary information is arrogant.
The key to my point is this: Is the claim being made a positive, specific statement by one person about what another thinks? Has the claimant verified with the other person what he or she thinks? Has the other person in fact informed the claimant that they do not think as the claimant says, yet the claimant persists?
If the answers are yes to the first and no to the second, then the claim is unprovable and ignorant (as theism so often is). If the third answer is also yes, then it is rank, disgusting arrogance.
One thing must certainly be cleared up here. What does arrogant mean? I present the following:
1. Making, or having the disposition to make, exorbitant claims of rank or estimation; giving one's self an undue degree of importance; assuming; haughty; -- applied to persons. "Arrogant Winchester, that haughty prelate."
Making exorbitant claims of estimation certainly applies here, as does the quality "assuming". So no, theism in general is not arrogant and I never claimed it was. I said that specific theists making specific claims are being arrogant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 10-24-2005 6:05 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 10-29-2005 9:35 PM mikehager has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 60 (255554)
10-29-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mikehager
10-29-2005 11:16 AM


Re: Arrogance
So no, theism in general is not arrogant and I never claimed it was. I said that specific theists making specific claims are being arrogant.
But what about the choices I offered in the OP? Which are arrogant?
You know what I think? Anyone who disagrees with your basic view point is considered in your eyes arrogant.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-29-2005 08:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mikehager, posted 10-29-2005 11:16 AM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mikehager, posted 10-30-2005 10:42 PM robinrohan has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 60 (255618)
10-30-2005 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


Everyone ought to believe in God.
Everyone ought to believe in TOE.
Both are arrogant.
However the statement "everyone should believe that the ToE is the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life we have at this time" is not arrogant. It is a definitional issue and appraisal of facts in relation to that definition. Whether one believes that the best science has to offer at this time is the actual explanation, is different than whether something is in fact the best science has to offer at this time.
Everyone feels the presence of God.
Everyone has secret fears.
Anyone who claims to feel the presence of God is deluded. What they feel, without knowing it, is the cultural pressure to be a believer.
The first is arrogant, unless it is changed to almost everyone feels something which many take (describe) to be the presence of God.
The second is almost arrogant. It depends on what one means by secret and fear. Unknown to onesself? Fear of something in particular?
The last is certainly arrogant. If a person said they believe that such people are deluded, or that they could be deluded is one thing. To make a statement as if that were knowledge is beyond their actual capability.
In levels of arrogance, telling a person what they ought to believe is only slightly more arrogant than telling them what they do believe.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 10-24-2005 6:05 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by robinrohan, posted 10-30-2005 8:32 PM Silent H has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 60 (255693)
10-30-2005 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
10-30-2005 10:32 AM


In levels of arrogance, telling a person what they ought to believe is only slightly more arrogant than telling them what they do believe
I don't think any of them are arrogant. The very nature of a claim carries with it the idea that the claimer is right and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. Arrogance only occurs with claims that include a personal element--e.g., "I, being an X, am better than you, being a Y."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 10-30-2005 10:32 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mikehager, posted 10-30-2005 10:47 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 10-31-2005 5:09 AM robinrohan has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 10 of 60 (255718)
10-30-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
10-29-2005 9:35 PM


Re: Arrogance
Think what you will. You are, of course, wrong... but not arrogant. My point is very simple but you seem unable to grasp it, I will try one final time to communicate it to you.
Everyone ought to believe in God.
Everyone ought to believe in TOE.
Neither are arrogant. They are stating the beliefs of the claimant as to what others should do.
Everyone has secret fears.
Not this one, either. This is not making specific claims about the state of another person's mind.
Anyone who claims to feel the presence of God is deluded. What they feel, without knowing it, is the cultural pressure to be a believer.
Again, not arrogant in the way we are discussing. This is not making a positive claim about the state of another person's mind. It is admitting to the person's asserted state of mind (i.e. feeling the presence of God).
Everyone feels the presence of God.
Bingo! Here it is. This claim states that every person, each and every person in all the world, feels a certain way. The claim is that not only does the claimant know what I think (without my telling them) but also what all people think. Really? They know all that? How could they? The arrogance (using the definition I gave) is clear. It assumes a knowledge that could not really exist and makes an exorbitant claim of estimation.
I said that Prophex's statement was arrogant, gave a definition of arrogance, and showed how the original claim fit it. In light of that, I will certainly not tolerate the following...
You know what I think? Anyone who disagrees with your basic view point is considered in your eyes arrogant.
I made a claim. I defended it rationally. This is merely immature harping on your part. Still, I will go to the trouble of refuting this nonsense. I quote again from your OP.
Everyone ought to believe in God.
I absolutely disagree with this. It is completely the opposite of my basic viewpoint and I do not find it arrogant, merely misguided. So, unless you are going to claim that you know better then I do what I think, I expect you to withdraw your accusation with apologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 10-29-2005 9:35 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Ben!, posted 10-30-2005 10:58 PM mikehager has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 11 of 60 (255719)
10-30-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by robinrohan
10-30-2005 8:32 PM


How about this?
Deleted this. On rereading it was repetitive and not needed.
This message has been edited by mikehager, 10-30-2005 10:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by robinrohan, posted 10-30-2005 8:32 PM robinrohan has not replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 12 of 60 (255721)
10-30-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mikehager
10-30-2005 10:42 PM


Re: Arrogance
mikehagar,
The claim is that not only does the claimant know what I think (without my telling them) but also what all people think. Really? They know all that? How could they?
Well... first of all, all sorts of critical social functions (most notably language) deepend on the assumption of homogenaity. So, this type of thing goes on all the time.
Second of all, what makes "thinking" special and inaccessible to others? I could easily say that I know you, mikehagar, see the sky as blue (a statement about your experience, not a statement about any property of the sky or light). You never told me so, but I am certain of it.
In my eyes, prophex's claim is no different. RAZD often talks about the ability to trigger supernatural experiences with some type of electric-stimulating helmet. The point being that all people can have experiences that are god-like. It's something we can empirically investigate about being human and having human brains.
The final piece to the puzzle: a bit of philosophy of language. Prophex said, "Everyone feels the presence of God." What does this sentence "mean" ? There are many ways to define meaning, but I (as a cognitive linguist) find the most useful way of deriving meaning is to translate from the belief system of the speaker to the belief system of the listener. In other words, even though prophex phrases things using language talking about God (because prophex believes in God), to someone who may not believe in God, the underlying useful meaning can be found by translating the speech into a belief system without God. And for prophex's statement, it would translate to "Everyone is capable of experiencing supernatural-like feelings."
Prophex was basically just saying that we all have the capability to have such experiences. It's something that's certainly investigable via self-report protocols, a common technique in psychology and cognitive science. So... I don't see how it's any more arrogant than claiming all people get hungry.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mikehager, posted 10-30-2005 10:42 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by mikehager, posted 10-30-2005 11:27 PM Ben! has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 60 (255723)
10-30-2005 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
10-24-2005 6:05 PM


Theism isn't arrogant. But yes, people can be.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 10-24-2005 6:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 14 of 60 (255728)
10-30-2005 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Ben!
10-30-2005 10:58 PM


Re: Arrogance
I can only respond to what I read. To add or subtract meaning to what is actually asserted without the agreement of the person making the claim makes any refutation of it a strawman and thus invalid.
So all I have to work with is "Everyone feels the presence of God." This sentence (I am not a cognitive linguist but I do read and write the english language quite well {spelling is another matter}) does not mean the same thing as "Everyone is capable of experiencing supernatural-like feelings." The original is an absolute, positive statement of fact and your translation is conditional, stating a possibility. Two very different things.
It may be that Prophex meant what you say he did, in which case he was not arrogant, he just didn't express himself well, and I would certainly withdraw my charge of arrogance. He has never responded on this issue so we don't know. So, as I said above, all I have to go on is what was actually said.
Also, what a person is "thinking" is inaccessable to others. Want proof? What number am I thinking of right now? To continue this example, let's say that I told you that the number I was thinking of was 8675309 (DAMN YOU TOMMY TUTONE!).
Then you replied, "No, the number you were thinking of was 3."
I say, "No, really, it was 8675309."
You say, "No, it was 3. I think of 3, everyone in the world thinks of 3, and you were thinking of 3. Just admit it."
What would that make you? Bottom line, you didn't know what number I was thinking of, just as Prophex (or any of the others I have heard this from in the past) cannot know if I feel the presence of any deity. To claim knowledge that it is impossible to actually have is arrogant. Oh, and with the blue sky? I could be color blind and you would have no way to know it.
This message has been edited by mikehager, 10-30-2005 11:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Ben!, posted 10-30-2005 10:58 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 10-30-2005 11:44 PM mikehager has replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 15 of 60 (255731)
10-30-2005 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mikehager
10-30-2005 11:27 PM


Re: Arrogance
mikehagar,
Thanks for the reply. Hope this post can add some value.
The original is an absolute, positive statement of fact and your translation is conditional, stating a possibility. Two very different things. ... as I said above, all I have to go on is what was actually said.
All language is necessarily interpretive. There is no such thing as context-free meaning in natural language. There is no "actually said."
Think of it like translating across languages. If you translated "He brought the house down" from English to Japanese using "literal" meaning, you'd get nonsense. If you recognized the cultural components of the statement, you'd be able to translate the statement into a Japanese idiom that fit within Japanese cultural elements.
The exact same thing needs to be done here, to extract useful meaning out of the statement. The statement is embedded in prophex's own belief systems. To understand what really lies at the base of his statement, you have to translate it into your own belief system. A choice NOT to do such a translation is a choice to read prophex in a specific way. It's no more right or wrong than the style of reading I'm proposing. I am suggesting that it's a less useful (i.e. informative) way of interpreting his words though.
Also, what a person is "thinking" is inaccessable to others.
Yes, but a single case does not make an absolute. Your argument is about all thinking being inaccessible. You could prune your argument down and make it specific to prophex's statement. But I showed (given the most useful interpretation of prophex's statement) that it CAN be known for all people without asking them.
Oh, and with the blue sky? I could be color blind and you would have no way to know it.
And so you're going to make me qualify what everyone would normally qualify for themselves. Yes, you cannot know such things "for certain." Just like you can't know that people have 2 arms or 2 legs. There are exceptions.
The point was, you can know as a general rule for all people. Which is exactly the type of statement that prophex was making. Exceptional circumstances are always possible.
But, But, your point is good anyway; colorblindness is really not rare. So, I'll just say that I can know that when you touch something of a high temperature with your lips, you don't like it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mikehager, posted 10-30-2005 11:27 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
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