Summations Only

I have been working my way through the OT and came across this story of how Jehu slaughtered all of the descendants and followers of Ahab using deceit and treachery.Here is the account from 2 Kings 10.

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1 Now Ahab had seventy sons in Samaria. And Jehu wrote letters and sent them to Samaria, to the rulers of Jezreel, the elders, and to the guardians of the children of Ahab, saying,

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2"Now, when this letter comes to you, since your master's sons are with you, as well as the chariots and horses and a fortified city and the weapons,

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3select the best and fittest of your master's sons, and set him on his father's throne, and fight for your master's house."

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4 But they feared greatly and said, "Behold, the two kings did not stand before him; how then can we stand ?"

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5 And the one who was over the household, and he who was over the city, the elders, and the guardians of the children, sent word to Jehu, saying, "We are your servants, all that you say to us we will do, we will not make any man king ; do what is good in your sight."

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6 Then he wrote a letter to them a second time saying, "If you are on my side, and you will listen to my voice, take the heads of the men, your master's sons, and come to me at Jezreel tomorrow about this time." Now the king's sons, seventy persons, were with the great men of the city, who were rearing them.

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7 When the letter came to them, they took the king's sons and slaughtered them, seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent them to him at Jezreel.

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8 When the messenger came and told him, saying, "They have brought the heads of the king's sons," he said, "Put them in two heaps at the entrance of the gate until morning."

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9 Now in the morning he went out and stood and said to all the people, "You are innocent ; behold, I conspired against my master and killed him, but who killed all these ?

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10"Know then that there shall fall to the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spoke concerning the house of Ahab, for the LORD has done what He spoke through His servant Elijah."

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11 So Jehu killed all who remained of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, and all his great men and his acquaintances and his priests, until he left him without a survivor.

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12 Then he arose and departed and went to Samaria. On the way while he was at Beth-eked of the shepherds,

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13Jehu met the relatives of Ahaziah king of Judah and said, "Who are you?" And they answered, "We are the relatives of Ahaziah ; and we have come down to greet the sons of the king and the sons of the queen mother."

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14 He said, "Take them alive." So they took them alive and killed them at the pit of Beth-eked, forty-two men ; and he left none of them.

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15 Now when he had departed from there, he met Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him; and he greeted him and said to him, "Is your heart right, as my heart is with your heart ?" And Jehonadab answered, "It is." Jehu said, "If it is, give me your hand." And he gave him his hand, and he took him up to him into the chariot.

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16 He said, "Come with me and see my zeal for the LORD." So he made him ride in his chariot.

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17 When he came to Samaria, he killed all who remained to Ahab in Samaria, until he had destroyed him, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke to Elijah.
Jehu Destroys Baal Worshipers

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18 Then Jehu gathered all the people and said to them, "Ahab served Baal a little ; Jehu will serve him much.

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19"Now, summon all the prophets of Baal, all his worshipers and all his priests ; let no one be missing, for I have a great sacrifice for Baal ; whoever is missing shall not live." But Jehu did it in cunning, so that he might destroy the worshipers of Baal.

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20 And Jehu said, "Sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal." And they proclaimed it.

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21 Then Jehu sent throughout Israel and all the worshipers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left who did not come. And when they went into the house of Baal, the house of Baal was filled from one end to the other.

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22 He said to the one who was in charge of the wardrobe, "Bring out garments for all the worshipers of Baal." So he brought out garments for them.

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23Jehu went into the house of Baal with Jehonadab the son of Rechab ; and he said to the worshipers of Baal, "Search and see that there is here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal."

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24 Then they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had stationed for himself eighty men outside, and he had said, "The one who permits any of the men whom I bring into your hands to escape shall give up his life in exchange."

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25 Then it came about, as soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the royal officers, "Go in, kill them; let none come out." And they killed them with the edge of the sword ; and the guard and the royal officers threw them out, and went to the inner room of the house of Baal.

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26 They brought out the sacred pillars of the house of Baal and burned them.

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27 They also broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and broke down the house of Baal, and made it a latrine to this day.

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28 Thus Jehu eradicated Baal out of Israel.

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29However, as for the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel sin, from these Jehu did not depart, even the golden calves that were at Bethel and that were at Dan.

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When we get to the end we can see that Jehu destroyed all of the places of worship of Baal so if you like it can be argued that Yahweh felt it necessary. Indeed it goes on to say that:

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30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."

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So ostensibly here we have a case of Yahweh applauding a brutal treacherous slaughter as presumably the means must have justified the ends. Not exactly bed time reading for the little ones — is it?However when we read the book of Hosea chapter 1 we read the following.

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4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

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Now it seems that although Yahweh was pleased with Jehu for what he did in 2nd Kings, he is now going to punish him for it in Hosea. This does strike me as more than a little odd and definitely un-God-like.My contention again is that the OT is the story of God’s relationship with His people. It is told with the cultural and personal biases of the individual writers who had been inspired to write their stories. My belief is that when the Bible is read that way, as a narrative made up of numerous styles of writing, then it becomes a much more powerful and meaningful story. God’s message of truth, love, justice and forgiveness, mercy etc is all there if we don’t keep trying to deify the Bible, which IMHO only detracts from the God that the Bible is actually about.I would like to hear the views of literalists/fundamentalists regarding what seems to me to be an inconsistent view of Yahweh and in the passages I have just cited. If it isn’t viewed as inconsistent it IMHO, makes Yahweh duplicitous, as well as brutal, and I have to wonder why anyone would want to worship a God like that.Micah 6:8 says the following.

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8 He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God ?

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How does a person who loves humble kindness and justice, the qualities of Yahweh that we see in Jesus Christ, worship the God that we see in those two passages if we take them as being literally true. Does it not make a whole lot more sense to understand that it is a part of Jewish history where they went off the rails, and then justified it by saying that Yahweh was in favour of what they had done?I think Bible Study is appropriate if some mod thinks that this passes muster. Edited by GDR, : As suggested by Admin PD

Suggestion concerning the big chunk of scripture you quoted.To make reading easier, I suggest breaking it into paragraphs or just quote the part at the end you referred to and link to the page where people can read the whole story if they choose.Even the NIV and KJJV have it broken into paragraphs. Makes for easier reading on the screen.I'm not sure Bible Study is the right forum. Bible Study is on the religious side and the description is: What does the Bible really mean?The Accurracy and Inerrancy thread on the science side says in the description: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?You seem to be looking at the reality behind the Bible, which might do better on the science side.If you want it on the religious side, Faith and Belief may be a better fit. I don't feel you're looking at what the Bible really means.Thanks
AdminPD

Thanks. That was something of a no-brainer. That makes sense. Thanks again.

Thread copied here from the A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

It's not possible to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and for it to remain cogent; and this is after taking into consideration allegorical speech, euphemisms, and metaphors. You will find a plethora of contradictions if you consider the bible to be literal.

There are certainly those that claim they take it literally but in trying to do that it turns, the Christian faith and God for that matter into something that IMHO, is virtually unrecognizable when compared to the God that we can see in the context of the entire narrative and particularly as embodied in the life and message of Jesus.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

You mean: "it turns what I believe to be the christian faith into something I don't recognize". Where do you draw the line at what is regarded as literal and what is allegorical? Why is the initial murder not literal? It's not like there aren't a plethora of other verses where the god character sanctions abhorrent violence, rendering this one time into allegory. He told Abraham to murder his own son for fucks sake. What you have is your god character in one instance saying "this is good" but it is something YOU deem to be wrong, and in another instance he is saying "nevermind, that thing is wrong" and you agree.If they had an olympics for mental gymnastics, you would take the gold medal. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

The thing is that you are only understanding Christianity in the way that a fundamentalist does. The point is that the Bible was written by men who were inspired to write down their stories but they weren't dictated by God. They contain their personal and culturally biases.In the account I gave of Jehu it is obvious that the writer of Kings 2 was supportive of Jehu and it is obvious that the writer of Hosea wasn't. It is however part of the whole story. We can see the thread of a loving God through the Hebrew Scriptures but we can also see all of the screw ups of the ancient Jewish people. In one way it would be like looking at the history of the church today told from various view points.The simplest way to understand the OT is to read it through the filter of the Gospels as well as the epistles, and it is important to read those in context. The majority of the time in the Gospels where Jesus is quoted we can see that what He is saying is rooted in one part or another of the Hebrew Scriptures. Ultimately, Jesus tells us that the whole issue is about the love of God and neighbour. Yes there is the theological side as well which I don`t mean to minimize but that is a separate issue.What Jehu did is hardly an act of love and bears no resemblance to what Jesus taught when He said that we are to love our enemy. It is clear that what Jehu did was not pleasing to Yahweh.AbE Compare an account of the Viet Nam war as written in the US to one written in Hanoi. That would be the same type of difference that we would get in the accounts of Kings 2 and Hosea. I don't think it takes any kind of mental gymnastics to sort that out. Edited by GDR, : Just another thought after posting.

yea, because at least fundamentalists don't bend and twist the scripture. I have more respect for Fred Phelps in his reading of that book than I do people like you. People like you pave the way for the dumb shit that Phelps and his ilk do. People like you are the reason people say "well, you're just reading it wrong" because YOU say exactly that.... Liberal xians are far worse, IMO, than the fundies. no, it's not. Did you read the first part? You should have since you typed it in your OP..... So....which part was the god character lying? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Reading the allegories as allegories and the metaphors as metaphors is reading the Bible literally. It is unfortunate that we've allowed a minority sect to determine that reading the Bible literally means something completely different than the reading for comprehension stuff many of us were all taught before we even started school.At this point we are stuck with a definition of Bible Literalism that is little more than an idiom.I can imagine a person who decided to follow the collective wisdom described in a collection of obviously allegorical stories, such as Aesop's fables. I couldn't take serious anyone whose criticism was based on pointing out that grasshoppers and wolves cannot really talk.

I agree with all of that, however the example I used in the OP, and there are many others, is written in historical form. When the writers say that God approved of what Jehu had done in Kings 2 and then wanted to punish Jehu later for doing something immoral, it seems to me that there are a few possibilities.
1/ God was actually pleased by what Jehu had done but it was still an immoral act requiring Jehu to be punished.
2/ God changed His mind about what happened
3/ Jehu himself justified his actions by saying that God was pleased whether or not he actually believed it
4/ The writer of Kings 2 believed that God was pleased either because that’s how he saw it or because that's what Jehu told him, but the writer of Hosea saw it differently
5/ the whole story is a legend and isn't historical at all
6/ something else altogether that you might be able to think ofPersonally I go with either 3 or 4. I believe the event is historical and that Jehu justified what he did by claiming God was on his side. He may well have actually believed it as it so often seemed for all people of that era to be about territorial control and they wanted the god(s) to be on their side in battle. (Things haven't changed all that much eh? ) We do seem to keep trying to make God in our image.

Hi GDR, Easy, all you have to do is know what is being talked about and what Jehu was punished for.You stopped quoting the text at the point that tells what Jehu did wrong that brought about the punishment mentioned in Hosea.

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2 Kings 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

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10:31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.

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10:32 In those days the LORD began to cut Israel short: and Hazael smote them in all the coasts of Israel;

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10:33 From Jordan eastward, all the land of Gilead, the Gadites, and the Reubenites, and the Manassites, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, even Gilead and Bashan.

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10:34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehu, and all that he did, and all his might, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel?

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10:35 And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.

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10:36 And the time that Jehu reigned over Israel in Samaria was twenty and eight years.

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Jehu did good in that he destroyed Baal and their places of worship. But he failed to worship God as he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.If you will notice in verse 32, and 33 God was punishing the nation of Israel for the sins they were still comitting.In verse 34 we are told Jehu did a lot of things that are not recorded.But the magic words in your question I am trying to answer are:"kindness and justice"God is kind which most people think he should always be. The general thoughts of humans is that God is supposed to love us so much He will not punish us for anything we do.But He is a God of justice and sin can not go unpunished. His children receive all their punishment here on Earth and those who are not His children receives punishment here on Earth and in eternity.So I don't see a problem with God being a God of love or a God of justice, as He is both.God Bless,

So it is just to punish all of the innocent people because the King did not do what he should?Yup, right.

Hi ICANTYou have to read the Hosea quote. It is very clear what Jehu was being punished for. There is no reason to extend the quote. I'll re-quote Hosea.from Hosea 1:

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4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

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Jehu is being punished for the "bloodshed of Jezreel", which is exactly my point. The writer of Kings 2 writes that God is pleased about what happened whereas the writer of Hosea says that Jehu is to be punished for it. It is two different writers with two different points of view.The Bible is a narrative that tells the whole God story from creation through Abraham, through the prophets, through Jesus, through Christ's Kingdom or His church and finally to new creation at the end of time. The Bible chronicles it all and if you keep trying to manipulate it in a vain effort to make it conform to your idiosyncratic views then IMHO so much of what God has for us is lost. But Hosea isn't saying that Jehu is being punished for destroying the places of worship of Baal or for failing to worship God. He is being punished for the slaughter of the people of Jezreel. Hosea is extremely clear on that. Of course I believe God is a God of both love and justice. The two are not at all incompatible. But it is God's justice and not ours that we are talking about. The writer of Hebrews quotes both Deuteronomy when he says:

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For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

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as does Paul in Romans:

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Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

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The Scriptures are clear that our job is to love God and love our neighbour; it is to humbly love justice and kindness.Sure we have our human laws where we incarcerate people for the hoped for benefit of society but we are not called to commit mass murder.Let's just use some basic common sense. Let's assume that God wanted all of the descendents and followers of Ahab dead, because they were evil and were turning the hearts of others away from His desire for love and justice. At the same time he wants Jehu and his followers to turn their hearts to Him. How would we expect a God of love and justice to do that?If we look at modern history and see what modern wars have done to the hearts and minds of our own peoples we can see that it makes no sense to involve Jehu and his followers in this mass killing. What do you think it would do to your heart and mind if your God told you to decapitate a group of people and then be involved in a mass slaying of presumably men, women and children. Is this what a loving just God does to His followers; the people He loves.So even if God did want, (which I don't agree is the case anyway), all of the followers of Ahab dead it seems crystal clear to me that He would do it directly and not involve His people in it at all.We are called to be God's loving agents and as part of that we are to trust that God's perfect will be done, but on His schedule not ours.I don't mean to sound clever or holier than thou but I suggest that you really try to take a holistic view of the scriptures without preconceptions of what it is you are reading. It is IMHO so much more powerful when you view God's faithfulness through all of our human failings both then and now. The Bible is God's gift to the church but it isn't God or even His representative. That is what Jesus was for.Edited by GDR, : typos

I find it interesting that the few fundamentalists still left on this forum, (I haven’t seen Iano for quite a while), are more interested in trying to argue against evolution, and other branches of the sciences, than they are trying to explain obvious difficulties in the more mundane problems of trying to find meaning from a literal reading of the Scriptures. (I have to add that I agree with what NoNukes posted above about the meaning of literal.)It seems to be much less important to argue about how God created the universe than it is to try and discern whether or not God actually approved or even sanctioned atrocities such as the example quoted in the OP. I suggest that the most important thing for a Christian is to understand the nature of God, and just how it we are to serve Him. If He is a God that justifies mass murder it then follows that we would serve him in a very different way than we would the God we see incarnate in Jesus.From a personal POV, as far as I’m concerned if I actually believed that God was a God could justify genocide, death by stoning for minor misdemeanours etc then I would quit being a member of the church and join the Rotary Club where I could be of use.I however understand God, as we see Him incarnate in Jesus. There the message is that we are to love God and all of His creation including our enemies, as He first loved us. We are to reflect the love of a loving God to the world. That’s a God I’ll dedicate and give my life to.Edited by GDR, : typoEdited by GDR, : typo