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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 1 of 318 (644448)
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


I have noticed that many religious people seem to believe that they hold some sort of moral high ground. They seem to believe that because they follow the teachings of a particular faith, they automatically become superior to others when it comes to interpretation of scripture, moral and ethical judgements etc

One of the reasons for this claim often stems from the idea that their particular religion or religion in general has a lower kill rate than no religion.

Portillo provided this claim in Message 87

Atheistic regimes have killed over 100 million people. Thats 10,000 times more than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.

I have heard this claim made many times. I have seen it brought up in debates and now it appears here.

I would like to challenge those who believe this to be true to support it.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 318 (644450)
12-18-2011 1:13 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Moral high ground thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 3 of 318 (644459)
12-18-2011 2:24 AM


Thread Moved from Faith and Belief Forum
Thread moved here per Butterfly Tyrants request.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 318 (644481)
12-18-2011 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Something else along these lines that I think follows from this or is a cause of this, is that of faith as a virtue. I have been meaning to create a thread about it but I haven't found a need for it.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 5 of 318 (644486)
12-18-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


This thread reminded me that it is time for me to change my forum signature.

Christianity claims the moral high ground it its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-17-2011 11:28 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 6 of 318 (644487)
12-18-2011 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
One of the problems with claiming some moral high ground for Christianity is that the evidence just flat refutes it.

No nation, no other religion or belief system does genocide on the scale of Christianity or with as much success as Christianity.

From the very moment Christianity was adopted as a State Religion by Constantine it has been spread by force and by the simple step of totally destroying all remnants of any competing culture, belief, religion or philosophy or by adopting the cultural event and commandeering it to support Christianity.

It has had one simply message; if you are not Christian convert or suffer the consequences both in this life and for eternity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-17-2011 11:28 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1775
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 7 of 318 (644491)
12-18-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


One of the reasons for this claim often stems from the idea that their particular religion or religion in general has a lower kill rate than no religion.

Could this be refuted by pointing out that something like 80% of people believe in some type of god? That this is probably an all time low and so throughout history at least 80% of the people actually doing the killing were probably theists. Stalin may have been an atheist but I doubt that all of his henchmen were.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-17-2011 11:28 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6673
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 8 of 318 (644492)
12-18-2011 11:13 AM


I've had it put to me that atheists must be amoral (because morals come from god), that believers must be more moral than me because they believe in God and one even said that there was nothing stopping him raping and murdering except for his belief in god and an afterlife.

The trouble with all these people is that they're universally stupid.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(4)
Message 9 of 318 (644497)
12-18-2011 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Atheistic regimes have killed over 100 million people. Thats 10,000 times more than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.

ROFL! 100,000,000 divided by 10,000 = 10,000, the last I looked. I Samuel 18:7 tells us, inerrantly, of course: As they danced, they sang: Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.

Portillo, are you out there? Would you care to respond, before we start on the Crusades, "ethnic cleansing," the Hundred Years' War, the invasion of the New World, the spread of Islam,.........?


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 10 of 318 (644500)
12-18-2011 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Atheistic regimes have killed over 100 million people. Thats 10,000 times more than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.

I have heard this claim made many times. I have seen it brought up in debates and now it appears here.

Um can some one show me an atheistic regime?

Hitlers reigime well no, his whole idea was based on doing gods work

Stalin,

O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who broughtest man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.

Yea sounds verry atheistic to me he dint alowe worhip of gods but hey that dosent mean he dint love worhip of him.

north korea well i think their leader got 11 holes in one while playing golf for the first time, again a noter cult of personality.

But one could count america as having an atheistic regime you know the whole seperation of curch and state buisnes. Ok i know its a bad example cause you torture andkill people today , but i dont see any corelation between atheism and killing people. I do se a corelation between religion and killing people but that could be because its easy to manipulate people with religion, and that is why it is used so often to make people do bad things.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(3)
Message 11 of 318 (644526)
12-18-2011 6:50 PM


I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
Hey folks,

Sorry about the big cut and paste but here goes -

quote:
Killed by God

? -- Drowned everyone in the whole world except for Noah and his family (Genesis 7)

1 -- Saltified Lot's wife (Genesis 19:26)

? -- Burned all of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (except for "good" Lot who offered his virgin daughters to a mob of men and then slept with both of them himself later)

1 -- Slew Er, Judah's firstborn son (Genesis 38:7)

1 -- Killed Er's brother, Onan because he spilled semen on the ground so as not to conceive offspring for his brother's wife whom he was forced to marry (Genesis 38:9-10)

? -- The firstborn in all of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)

? -- Drowned the pharoah and all of his gang in the Red Sea (Exodus 14:26-28)

2 -- Nadab and Abihu for making a fire

? -- Burned some Jews for complaining

? -- Sent a plague against Jews for being greedy

11 -- Sent a plague on Jews who gave the chosen land a bad report

? -- Korah and other Jews who didn't like Moses

? -- The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and

their families because they had been rebellious (Numbers 16:27-33)

250 -- A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men (Numbers 16:35)

14,700 -- Sent a plague on Jews apparently for the hell of it (Numbers 16:49)

"many" -- Sent serpents on Jews (Numbers 21:6)

24,000 -- Plague killed Jews who followed Baal (Numbers 25:9)

? -- Philistines

50,070 -- Jews who looked in the ark of the covenant (1 Samuel 6:19)

1 -- Nabal for scorning David

1 -- Uzzah for touching the ark when trying to keep it from falling

1 -- David and Bathsheba's child

70,000 -- Sent a pestilence because David sinned (2 Samuel 24:15)

51 -- Fire from heaven consumes the prophets of Baal (2 Kings 1:10-12)

102 -- Sent fire down on Ahaziah's men

42 -- Sent bears to kill children who mocked Elisha (2 Kings 2:23-24)

? -- Sent lions to kill invaders

185,000 -- Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35)

80,000 -- Lots of bad Israelites

___________________________________________

399,933 + ? -- Total killed by God!

Killed on God's orders by his followers

? -- Jacob's sons killed every man in Shechem

3,000 -- Jews worshipping the golden calf (Exodus 32:27-29)

1 -- Man gathering wood on the Sabbath Day (Numbers 15:32-36)

? -- Canaan (Numbers 21:3)

? -- The Lord commands Moses to kill the people and expose them in broad daylight so that the Lord's anger may be turned away from Israel (Numbers 25:4)

? -- Took the city of Heshbon from the Amorites

? -- All of the people of Bashan

? -- All Midianites except for the virgin girls (Numbers 31:17-18)

? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon leaving no survivors after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)

? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Og after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 3:6)

? -- Everyone in Jericho but Rahab, a hooker who betrayed her city (Joshua 6:21-27)

? -- Achan and his family (who had nothing to do with it) for stealing (Joshua 7:19-26)

12,000 -- Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai with the God's approval (Joshua 8:22-25)

? -- Everyone in the cities of Ai, Amalek, Makkedah, Libnath, Lachish, Egnolites,

Jarmuth, Geder, Hebronites, Debirites, Hormah, Arad, Addellam, Bethel,

Tappuah, Hepher, Apheh, Lasheron, Madon, Tasnach, Megiddo, Kedesh,

Jokneam, Dor, Goiim, Terzah, Gibeonites and all of the Amorites.

10,000 -- Canaanites of Bezek (Judges 1:4)

10,000 -- The Israelites kill the Moabites with the help of the Lord (Judges 3:29)

? -- The people of Jerusalem, Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai

? -- The people of Zephath, Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, and the king of Moab, Eglon.

? -- The army of Sisera and the men of Karkor

? -- Jephthah destroyed 20 cities

30 -- The Spirit of the Lord comes Samson and causes him to slay thirty men

(Judges 14:19)

1000 -- Under the Spirit of the Lord, Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass (Judges 15:15)

3000 -- Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women (Judges 16: 27-30)

50,100 -- The men of the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 20:35, 43-48)

? -- The tribe of Jabesh-gilead

? -- The Ammonites, the Philistines and the Amelekites

331,269 -- David killed a whole bunch of people

3 -- Solomon killed a few people too

? -- All of Jeroboam's extended family

? -- All of Baasha's extended family

450 -- Prophets of Baal

793,000 -- All Jewish Baal-followers

127,000 -- Arameans slain by the Israelites with the help of the Lord (1 Kings 20:28-30)

1 -- Man who wouldn't strike a prophet

? -- Moabites

172 -- Jezebel, Ahab's sons, Joram, their priests, and their friends

142 -- Ahaziah's relatives

? -- The sacrifice of the firstborn of Israel so that the Lord might horrify them.

? -- All of Baal's followers

1 -- Athaliah for killing sons

1 -- Mattan the Baal priest

10,002 -- Edomites and two servents

? -- All of the pregnant women in Tirzah

20,000 -- Hezekiah killed a bunch of people

500,000 -- Israelites killed each other

50,000 -- Ethiopians

23,000 -- Seerites

510 -- Haman's army

75,300 -- More of the army

___________________________________________

2,017,956 + ? -- Total killed by God's followers under his orders!

So the grand total comes to:

399,933 Killed by God

+ 2,017,956 Killed by Gods followers

= 2,417,889 + ? people killed by God and his followers under his orders PLUS an unknown amount which probably number into the millions, including the whole world at the time of Noah, and over 60 whole cities!


Source:

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/nogod/deathtoll.html

and similar source:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread602571/pg1

It would seem to be an odd position to attempt to position yourself just above people like Hitler or Stalin and claim the moral high ground.

So far, from the above count we have a bare minimum of 2.5 million. I would welcome any estimates of the amount of people killed in the flood, the firstborn of Israel and other figures marked with a question mark.

If we have a conservative estimate for this, we can ask the other team to begin their task by equalling the death toll in their holy book.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 12 of 318 (644543)
12-19-2011 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-18-2011 10:47 AM


Re: Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
I would like to see support for the idea that the US killed more people than Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany, although you will try and tell us that Hitler was a Christian...(Though we in the club know better)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 12-18-2011 10:47 AM jar has responded

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frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(4)
Message 13 of 318 (644549)
12-19-2011 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-19-2011 12:03 AM


Re: Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
although you will try and tell us that Hitler was a Christian...(Though we in the club know better)

EDITED per admins request

from mein kampf

I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.


translation god is with us

Stuf gotten from http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

There is more evidence on the fact that hitler was christian or claiming to be christian then there is for evolution and we all know evolution is true You can find the same information that i previusly posted in the wall of quotes on the above site.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by Chuck77, posted 12-19-2011 7:13 AM frako has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 14 of 318 (644557)
12-19-2011 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
12-19-2011 3:01 AM


Re: Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
frako writes:

Do you want more evidence the guy believed in your imaginary friend or does this suffice??

yes, but he obviously was not a real Christian, seeing as a real one would have the Holy, rather than the unholy spirit.
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Replies to this message:
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Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 15 of 318 (644559)
12-19-2011 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-19-2011 4:07 AM


Re: Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
Phat writes:

yes, but he obviously was not a real Christian

Phat, you gotta know at your long time here at the forum that this response doesn't work with non-Christians. "No true scottsman" will be the response.

People know Hitler wasn't actually doing Gods work by killing the Jews, who incidently were Gods chosen people, duh.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.


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