Christian Evangelism - Is it Off Track?

I have been a Christian for about 25 years now. During this time I have become more and more uncomfortable with the face and the message of Christian evangelism in the western world and in North America in particular.It not only didn’t fit with my personal experience, but it also didn’t fit with Christianity as I knew it. Christ to me is epitomized as the Servant King. The gospel message as I understood it was that God would help condition our heart to increase in us a love for that which is good and to increase our desire to love and to serve our neighbour. In a nutshell the Christian message is that God wants us to decrease the focus on self and to increase our focus on loving our neighbour. In my view the condition of our heart is what is important and our theology is a distant second.It always seemed to me that Christian Evangelism in general seemed to have the Christian faith completely backwards. The emphasis seems to be on eternal life and prosperity for oneself instead of love and service for others. This is not to say that someone who responds to the message of salvation won’t be infected with the message of love and service but I just wonder how many are turned off by that message. I know that I would have been.Here is a quote from a letter written by CS Lewis: I’m not referring here to those that are out and out charlatans but to those that are genuinely trying to do the work of God. I think instead of selectively emphasizing John 3:16 we should be putting the emphasis on Matthew 25 where Jesus calls us to feed the hungry, provide a drink to the thirsty, invite strangers into our homes, clothe those that need it, look after the sick and visit those who are in prison. Jesus said that when we do those things for those that need it we are doing it for him.I also came across this paper by Brain McClaren on this subject. I found it thought provoking. I’d be interested to know what others think.Page not found – Fuller Seminary

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

But take a little exception to the emphasis on heaven versus hell since this is straight out of Jesus' message. Jesus wants us to be very aware of heavenly rewards.But anything can be overemphasized. Sometimes, imo, the gospel of Jesus' death and resurrection is a little too over-emphasized to the exclusion of Jesus' teachings and nature, imo. That may seem an incredible idea to some, considering the importance of the salvation message, but I think in some sense it was what you are talking about.We need to know who Jesus is, His nature, not just how his death can bring us into the kingdom.But overall, I guess it's not so much the salvation message is overemphasized, as that there just needs to be more emphasis on Jesus' teachings as well.

God has given us the gift of time and a beautiful place to spend it. God has told us through His Son, His Creation and the Bible as well as through revelation how we are to focus our lives. He even made it very simple in that he simple tells us that we have to love him and love our neighbour. Isn't that in itself enough to be grateful for, even if there was no such thing as salvation.Christianity should be about taking the focus off of ourselves, and putting the focus on him and others. By promoting Christianity on the basis that you get to live forever, I contend we are turning the Christian faith upside down. We are right at the very outset saying that Christianity is about self interest, instead of the truth that it is about God and others. How much more effective would the Christian church be if instead of spending long hours in nice comfortable Bible study groups, home groups, church buildings or this forum for that matter, we were out feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, visiting the prisoners etc. We should be disciples of the Christian faith and not just adherents of the faith. In accepting the Christian faith we are asking Christ into our lives. If the only difference is that we start attending church on Sunday and reading our Bibles occasionally, one has to wonder if we really did invite Him in.I wish that I could say that I was living a life of discipleship in the exact manner that God would have me live it, but like just about everybody else I'm living a life that falls far short of the mark. I have however felt very uncomfortable for years with the salvation message of Christian evangelism and the way that it is promoted. IMHOThis message has been edited by GDR, 07-29-2005 08:22 PM

Dear GDR;Yes I agree entirely, I have noticed the same point that most Christians are focused solely on their own salvation and don't give a thought about anyone else. Which is why they don't preach, they are not really concerned about others. Their thinking is that they are saved and that is all that matters. So focused on their own salvation are they, that they don't even see or care about gaping holes in their doctrines. For example, they believe that everyone goes to heaven and to go to heaven of course you have to believe in Jesus and be born again. But they have no concern for those who died before Christ and never had the chance to know him. God is obviously just, so their doctrine is obviously missing something, but they are so focused on their own salvation that they don't even care about this problem. They also completely miss that fact that our own salvation is not the main reason Christ came to earth, by their narrowly thinking of only themselves, they miss just about everything else. Nothing sums up how narrow and limited their thinking on this is than the common saying of "if you accept Jesus as your personal savour, you are saved" as if that was the whole message of the Bible.True followers of Christ follow his command to preach the good news of the kingdom, and know the our salvation is not the main issue, other things are far more important such as the sanctification of God's name and the doing of God's will.This morning as on most weekend mornings, I will be going out and going door to door, knocking on peoples door and talking to them about the good news, not for my salvation, but for theirs. When I talk to most Christians of other religions, if I ask them, they don't even know what the kingdom is and most don't even want to know since they think that they are saved and that is all that they care about. When you read the Bible, the fact that God doesn't like selfish people comes across very clear, so he obviously doesn't approve of those who are only concerned with themselves.I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we are concerned about others and do all we can to help others. Our primary focus is on helping them to gain eternal life, as it should be, and we also do what we can to help out in other ways. I would suggest that you check us out, and you will find a religion that is focused on helping others rather than just helping self.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

I think you are missing the point. What McClaren, Lewis and for that matter me are saying is that it isn't about trying to win converts by talking, it is about winning converts by doing.It is about life style evangelism and showing people the love of Christ by actively loving our neighbours. If you are going to knock on doors then go to the home of those who need the help of a couple of dollars, or need some food, or have some other need and fullfill that need. Maybe instead of knocking on doors you could be down at the local soup kitchen, or at some hospital's alzheimer ward.I don't think that you clicked on the link in the first post as you don't seem to understand the point that McClaren was trying to make.

If I were you, I would spend less lime bothering people on their day off and more time getting your religion to change that insane doctrine of not allowing blood transfusions.You could save a lot of lives.

As my dear old mom used to say, "It ain't what you say that counts, it's what you do."

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just this morning in church I heard it put this way.
"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

quote:

---

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we are concerned about others and do all we can to help others. Our primary focus is on helping them to gain eternal life, as it should be, and we also do what we can to help out in other ways. I would suggest that you check us out, and you will find a religion that is focused on helping others rather than just helping self

---

Since it seems to be legitimate for people to preach - I feel that (within reason) it must also be legitimate to "anti-preach".I would urge anyone who wonders about the JWs to read below. I speak as an Atheist not as someone with another christian faith to push.

quote:

---

The Jehovah's Witnesses organisation keeps a sex offenders register that nobody outside the church is allowed to see, a former "elder" tells Panorama. Bill Bowen, who has spent his lifetime as a Jehovah's witness and nearly twenty years as an elder, says the organisation covers up abuse by keeping this databasesecret.

​

According to the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the Bible, allegations of child abuse must first be reported to the organisation's legal desk. The police are sometimes never told.

​

Despite having known for three years that Alison's father was a paedophile, the same elders sent Alison back home, where she continued to be abused.

​

--BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Secret database protects paedophiles

​

Justice Linda Dalianis dissented, saying church leaders did have a special obligation because they told the girls' mother to pray about the abuse and "be a better wife" but not to report it to the police. Also, Dalianis found the church had been told often enough about the physical and sexual assaults to expect them to continue.--

​

http://tinyurl.com/9q7f9 (newspaper -worksafe)

---

can we ever truly know and understand god? if you wanna pull out the idolatry argument, i'll start talking about how false doctrine routinely leads to idolatry in every christian church, everywhere. i see some of it, yes. christ seemed to have been trying to correct it. alot of his philosophy is similar to reform judaism. but christianity has gotten awfully far from THAT spirit, hasn't? and that's exactly what we're talking about here, isn't it? just because the implications are outstanding and revolutionary doesn't mean we should discard the hypothesis. as a creationist, you should understand this. otherwise, creationism makes fools and devils out of so many people in the history modern sciences like biology, chemistry, physics, paleontology, geology, etc, that the mere thought ought be unthinkable. well there's the key point. none of us really know. it's all faith. how the hell do you know if my understanding is wrong, based only on your faith? heck, i've demonstrated my understanding from the text. and you've demonstrated yours. we're not sitting around making stuff up, we're just picking and choosing different things.who are you to say i'm wrong, or not a christian? hating jesus is like hating ghandi or martin luther king. the only people who do are kind of wacko anyways. i use those two examples because they said much the same things. it's hard to hate people that say things like love people and have compassion, or call for peace.what i'm saying is that the christian attitude does not reflect those things, and that's why people don't like christians. i've debated with mormons personally on a good many things. i had several hour-long conversations with missionaries from the church of lds. i don't exactly agree with them -- but their attitude is far closer to demonstrating the love of christ than evangelical christianity is.we can have faith in "the right thing" all we want. but if we don't SHOW that faith, and follow the teachings of christ, it's all really meaningless. we're not spreading the good name of christ, we're making him look bad. sarcasm, faith. i know what i am. and it's not for you to decide -- or even me. judgement belongs to god. "give unto ceasar..." well, this is the part many christians don't get. you may not make the jump, but just about everybody else DOES. see, not everybody believes in god. so saying "god condemns your sin" is the same to them as "i condemn your sin." you may not mean it that way, but they hear it that way.since you brought up gay friends, i'll share an anecdote. i had a few gay friends in high school. i was hanging out with one such friend one night, when she flat out asked me about the bible and homosexuality, because she knew i am christian. she wanted to know what the bible said, and why i didn't treat her like most christians did -- ie: i was actually her friend and hung out with her.i explained that the bible condemns a lot of stuff that we all do as abominations. technically, from the standpoint of the law, male homosexuality is a sin but that the law never actually lists female homosexuality. paul disapproves of it later. i told her the law also condemns eating shrimp, cutting your hair, shaving, eating cheese and meat together, etc. that nobody actually is able to follow this law completely, and we all continue to break it. but, as christians, we are to show love and compassion and friendship to everyone regardless of their status as a sinner. christ befriended heathens, tax collectors, prostitutes, and cared for them all, not just the people he saw as holy. and he said that we are not to judge other people for their sins, because we are just as sinful.she said she totally respected that, and that nobody had ever really explained it her like that.now, which way do you think better demonstrates christ's love? god condemns all sin. we are not god, nor do we speak for god's judgement. we are not god's bailiffs. and besides, can you imagine walking around telling everybody they're sinners? everyone is. the origin, maybe. but uh, look at the word. pharisee -- parushim. from the hebrew word meaning "to separate." kind of ironic, don't you think? a good majority of christians follow some of them too you know.

---

אָרַח

I see no similarity between Christian doctrine and Reform Judaism. I believe scientists should be ashamed of their allegiance to evolution, and will be eventually, unless Jesus comes back sooner, but nevertheless nobody questions that they do genuine science in their everyday work, of which they have no reason to be ashamed. Well, I could point to church history where I can find theologians and preachers down the years I've learned from, as well as dozens, maybe even hundreds, living today whose preaching and teaching I appreciate. On the other hand, it appears that you have a theology pretty much exclusively your very own, shared by nobody else, except possibly some elements of Judaism. Pro 11:14: Where no counsel [is], the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors [there is] safety. Trusting only yourself to determine truth and rejecting all Christian authorities doesn't put you on very stable ground theologically. It isn't about who anybody is, it's about the established criteria. Those who refuse to believe him and follow him hate him according to the Bible's way of spelling this out. It's not a matter of emotion. They may even admire many things about him and still hate him because they refuse to acknowledge who he really is. I don't see how we can explain Jesus' own statement that there would be those who hate him otherwise or Psalm 2 which is orthodoxly interpreted to be about the refusal of the Christ by the majority -- or the nations. Again, your use of the term doesn't seem to be the Bible's use of it. That may be so. I've been impressed with Mormons myself. True, but again, if you DON'T have faith in the right thing for starters all your good works will be for nothing. No sarcasm at all. I meant what I said. But of course, judgment belongs to God. That is a command to adhere to the laws of the govering power, pay your taxes and not try to start a revolution, not a prohibition on being involved in politics. Apparently so, but the solution can't be to stop saying it as salvation rests on a recognition of the need for salvation. You then get into how you accept the ceremonial and dietary laws of the OT although they were clearly rescinded in the NT, and I guess I'll not try to argue you out of them.This message has been edited by Faith, 08-01-2005 10:09 AM

Dear GDR; Sadly, yes I am guilty as charged. I did read it now, and I would like to point out that McClaren is in conflict with what God said, on some important points. McClaren is recommending interfaith, or at least ending doctrinal squabbling between Christians by basically ignoring doctrine. In his sermon on the mound, Jesus words tell us that the gate is narrow, that there would be false prophets in 'sheep's covering' (appearing to be serving God in righteousness; -false Christians), many who claim to serve Christ do not.
(Matthew 7:13-23) "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."Jesus words clearly forbid those who would be his followers from uniting with those who are not really following Christ. The counter argument would be that Christ was only referring to non-Christian religions, but that interpretation is in conflict with what Jesus said above, and Paul taught that doctrine, that conflicted with what Jesus taught, was enough to lose God's favor.
(2 Timothy 2:17-18) "and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some."
Now Hymenaeus and Philetus were once part of the Christian congregation and now were not, Paul stated that they had deviated from the truth, that by changing one doctrine on the resurrection they were now disapproved by God. So doctrines do matter, to God. We do, we feel that our greatest witness is our conduct. The law of the Christ is to love our neighbor as ourself, we do our best to live up that command. (1 John 4:20) "If anyone makes the statement: "I love God," and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen."
Here are some links to some articles on love of neighbor and on some of the relief work we have been involved in.http://www.watchtower.org/library/kn35/article_01.htm LOVE OF NEIGHBOR
Has Grown Cold
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2002/9/1/article_02.htm Good Neighbors Are an Asset
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1998/1/15/article_01.htm CHRISTIANITY IN ACTION
Amid TurmoilIn his article McClaren also made the point that Christians should not be divided by race or nationality or by anything else, but should all be united as one. In this Jehovah's Witnesses are unique, we are one in love, we don't kill each other in wars and race doesn't matter to us. So much of what McClaren would like to see in christendom, Jehovah's Witnesses already have. As much as I would like to see this come to be for all of christendom, I know it never will, because they don't have love and without love they have nothing. Remember Rwanda? A 90% Catholic nation, composed mainly of two different african tribes, inter tribal hatred flared and Catholic slaughtered Catholic. Something like near a million people were murdered, in one case two catholic priests offered their church as a sanctuary and then once the people were inside, they had the church bulldozed to the ground, crushing to death or burying alive everyone inside. In contrast Jehovah's Witnesses hid their brothers from the other tribe and protected them at the risk of their own lives, and they did the same for others who were not even Witnesses. That is the kind of love that McClaren is talking about, and only Jehovah's Witnesses have it. It is impossible to take the Rwandan Catholic Church for example, and change it into the sort of loving brotherhood that exists among Jehovah's Witnesses. McClaren's goal of transforming christendom is not workable, their 'fruits are rotten' as Jesus said. It is up to individuals to join those who display the love that is the identifying mark of the true followers of Christ. (John 13:35) "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves." The task at hand is not to try to turn false religion into true, for it can't be done, but to leave it and flee to those who have God's love among them.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

I think that you might want to look at the actions of many in Europe in WWII who hid the jews from the nazis and would have been put to instant death if caught which many were. Somehow I don't think they were all JW's. I know Mother Teresa wasn't JW.We're all searching for truth and I'm pleased that you have found a path that provides the answers for you, but for me, when it comes to the question "what is truth" I am afraid that your version is somewhat different than mine.

I know my grandparents weren't.

---

*not an actual doctor