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Author Topic:   Is God good?
frako
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Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 1 of 722 (660574)
04-27-2012 7:01 AM


For the purpose of this topic the Christian god exists and the bible is 100% accurate.

some examples
Exodus
The Israelites get in to Egypt because of a famine they get enslaved .... Moses comes along and god sends 10 punishments because the PHARAOH does not let the Israelites go free.

1. Water to blood
2. frogs
3. Lice
4. Flies
5. Livestock desiesed
6. Boils
7. Thunder hail
8. Locusts
9. Darkness
10. Death of first-borns

Now exempt from harm from these plagues where obviously the Israelites, but the Pharaoh was also exempt from harm the actual guy who said no had nothing happen to him, His inocent child got killed and the innocent children of the land of Egypt the people of Egypt suffered but the man who said no and angered god got of scot free.

The Israelites went out of Egypt then god split the waters so they could pass had a pillar of fire standing so the Egyptians could not follow then removed the pillar when the Israelites where safe on the other side knowing that Pharaohs armies would follow then he drowned them.

The Israelites after 40 years came to the promise land. Filled with other civilisations gods orders where, to utterly destroy them make no covenant with them and show them no mercy, when it came to the amalecs he ordered to kill everything man women babe sucking unborn, donkeys camels .... On his way to the amalecs Saul met the Kenites urging them to flee what did god pleased with Sauls mercy? No he wasent. When Saul decided not to kill the animals but use them to feed his people was god pleased wit his charity? NO
god rejected him as king to please his god he braught the king AGAG and hacked him to pieces before the lord.

Are this the action of a Good being?

Example 2:

David who married Batshiba, against the wishes of god how did god punish David? God said since you have sinned me THE CHILD WILL DIE. an innocent child again. And was this child to die suddenly and painlessly no for 7 days he suffered. How can a good being punish an innocent child?

What about the flood?
What did the people do to warent such genocide such slaughter what did the children do? what did the sucklings do? what did the babes in their mothers wombs do? Is the flood an action of a good and just good?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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AdminModulous
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Message 2 of 722 (660576)
04-27-2012 8:08 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is God good? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3 of 722 (660588)
04-27-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
04-27-2012 7:01 AM


Two different questions.
You seem to be asking two different and unrelated questions; one related to God and the other related to some Bible stories.

To address my beliefs on the former ("Is God good?") I would point you to a post I made some years ago in yet another iteration of the topic. You can find that post at Message 49 in the thread How do we know God is "Good"?.

In the Bible stories again the answer would be "Of course that God is good" because that is the nature assigned to that character in that story.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2920
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 4 of 722 (660593)
04-27-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
04-27-2012 7:01 AM


Hello Frako,

The question how can a omnipotent and benevolent God allow evil is one of the oldest and most discussed philosophical contradictions in Christianity.

You could spend entire semesters in seminary
school on this one subject alone.

The first question on must answer is do you believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. I happen to know you are a atheist so in that context I will say the God of the bible is a collection of stories by bronze age jewish priest who for various reasons wrote these stories. The stories where packaged up and adopted by the Catholic church who maintained power until the Protestant reformation.

In order to fully understand the contradiction one must understand ancient levitical, mesoritic laws and jewish culture. Many of the fire and brim stone stories of the OT God of Israel began from ancient Babylonian myths ie: creation stories. The gods of Babylon had one in particular that was adopted named IL. A region known as edom had a god named Yahweh that was eventually adopted by the people of Israel. This God was all powerful and had no trouble conducting himself in the manner we know as the vengeful god of old. People back then understood that sin and not keeping the laws of Yaweh would bring the full wrath of this God upon them. The Musilim god Allah being one who maintains this bad temper and will put you to the fire if you do not abide the koran. It was the Christians who eventually soften the demeanor of God into one who is less vengeful, and culminating into man himself. A forgiving loving good God.

Whole point being all this literature was collected over centuries and spliced together. Reconciling these text are what makes for christian theology and redacting conflicting passages. So to answer your question is God good or bad I would answer that for you it is a moot point since you do not believe such a entity exist.

However, many Christians reconcile the contradiction by stating that God is not the storm, he is not the damage caused, He is the quiet after the storm, he is the peace that comes from the surviving the storm, the good will and hope in people, that is born from such tragedy.

All the above is a matter of personal opinion and has no basis in fact, so take it with a grain of salt.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 5 of 722 (660598)
04-27-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
04-27-2012 9:43 AM


Is God good or complete?
jar,in another thread writes:

So asking if GOD is good is a limiting question. GOD is good, and I believe I've pointed out some reasons that I believe that to be true.

But GOD is also terrible.

Does GOD also embody evil? Yes.

GOD is complete.

GOD is all.

GOD is Yin and Yang.

GOD was and is and will be.

Is GOD worthy of respect, acknowledgement or praise? IMHO, yes.

And fear and awe.

And love and honor.

GOD Is!

I fail to see how God can be described this way if one actually believes that they have communion with Him.

IMHO the only reason God allowed evil to exist was as a possibility...not an actuality. It makes no sense for evil to exist. Granted, humans assigned the value evil but even humans don't normally wish evil on their brethren. If humans have the capacity to avoid evil and seek good, surely God is no worse at it than we are. I also disagree with the yin/yang dualism assigned to GOD. Strictly my belief, however.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 6 of 722 (660658)
04-28-2012 6:34 AM


Dang was hoping for some rants about how dare i question the goodness of god and stuff, and some examples to show me how good he actually is.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 722 (660675)
04-28-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
04-28-2012 6:34 AM


That is called trolling.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 04-28-2012 6:34 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 722 (660707)
04-28-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
04-28-2012 6:34 AM


Questioning
You should question why some humans cant imagine an intelligence greater than our own feeble species and why its silly to imagine such an authority?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 9 of 722 (660710)
04-28-2012 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
04-28-2012 6:34 AM


frako writes:

Dang was hoping for some rants about how dare i question the goodness of god and stuff, and some examples to show me how good he actually is.

He puts up with you doesn't He?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17439
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 10 of 722 (660711)
04-28-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Thugpreacha
04-28-2012 5:22 PM


Re: Questioning
Phat writes:

You should question why some humans cant imagine an intelligence greater than our own feeble species and why its silly to imagine such an authority?


I would question why you equate intelligence with authority - and what either of them has to do with goodness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-28-2012 5:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 722 (660712)
04-28-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
04-28-2012 5:32 PM


Re: Questioning
ok, assuming that humans are responsible for their own authority...I suppose we are responsible for goodness also. But its nice to imagine a Divine Dad that can spellcheck my decisions and inspire me to greater heights.

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17439
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 12 of 722 (660714)
04-28-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
04-28-2012 5:34 PM


Re: Questioning
"Responsible" is the key word there. The Biblical God comes across as a kind of deadbeat dad who can only be counted on to put His own interests first. We have to be responsible because He isn't.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 13 of 722 (660716)
04-28-2012 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
04-28-2012 5:34 PM


Re: Questioning
Phat writes:

But its nice to imagine a Divine Dad that can spellcheck my decisions and inspire me to greater heights.

Blooregard "Bloo" Q writes:

Kazoo Oh, thank you, helpful trail of clothes. I love you.

It's a lot easier when YOU don't have to do it, isn't it?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-28-2012 5:34 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 722 (661251)
05-03-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
04-27-2012 7:01 AM


The problem is one of relativity.

Given this knowledge, there is only one relevant logical question to be asked; Which person's "good" is the real GOOD?. Is it Pete and his friends in group X? Or is it James and his friends in group Z? Or is it some other view?

If you are atheist and believe in relative morality, then you can't state that even though there is no ultimate morality, our God is ultimately morally bad.

Atheist Syllogism;

-There is no ULTIMATE right and wrong.
-Pete has morals X and judges God to be "wrong" or "bad" in his own book;

ERGO he concludes that God is ULTIMATELY bad and wrong.

The error is that of the law of none-contradiction. You are saying that God is ultimately bad and yet there is nothing ultimately bad.

It just doesn't work - it takes denial to pretend to yourselves that this works.

You see, only if you are ultimately morally perfect can you state that you have the say when it comes to ultimate reality. If you as Frako-none-believer have the keys to righteousness, then do share! do your morals stop you from sinning? Are you an example? Have you never lied or insulted, or even been angry and thought about angry things? Have you ever held a grudge or retaliated or spoken evil?

Our God lives in a holy place, we are told by scripture. We believe heaven, where He resides, is a place of holy perfection, a place where there is ultimately no lying or stealing or killing, therefore we have chosen in our lives to believe and trust the one who speaks from this position. It is these scriptures that describe God, which we hold as comments pertaining to God, such as, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". We TRUST and have FAITH that such scriptures are true, so we are not going to make foolish and self-righteous politically correct assertions about God, who we are told, is unfathomably great.

If you knew God this way, then you would have no reason to look into the scriptures in this narrow-minded way. It is because you do not know God, that you can't understand.

How can a good being punish an innocent child?

You see, that's an example of what you see from reading the text. You've chosen one strict way of interpreting scripture based on the position of mortality and individual rights, morals that are only fashionably new morals, modern morals that have arrived in the last few decades or so.

This is YOUR take on it, as a certain type of person, a certain group, whether your group is a minority or a majority, it is a subjective conclusion, even an ODD conclusion, trying to filter God through the human-rights system, Lol.

That's not how the bible describes God. God is gravity, that is how you should see Him.

Sure you can argue against gravity, you can say it is evil, you can even jump off a cliff in protest, but ultimately, gravity will have your ass splat.

It's the same with God - to judge God is only always error and misunderstanding. Why? Because we are told that God's understanding is unfathomable. Of course you do not understand His actions, because you do not have even 1% of His knowledge. Could you create a DNA? Could you come up with a contraflow lung?

"Trust in the Lord, and lean not on your own understanding".

Your moral conclusions about God are definitely important to you and those who share your modern morals. Soon those morals will change, maybe in a decade or so, you will not dare accuse God because in a decade it might be bible-phobic and immoral to say things bad about the bible. But those of us who trust the Lord and know Him, and how He truly is, we will still have a foundation that has not changed.

For the purpose of this topic the Christian god exists and the bible is 100% accurate.

If it is 100% accurate, even for the topic, then LOGICALLY, you have came to a non sequitur by saying God is no good, because christ said, "there is only one who is good, that being God".

So if the bible is 100% accurate, then it would mean that when you believe in 100% of the bible, you are obviously not going to come to the conclusion that God is not good, because many scriptures tell us that He is the source of all good.

If we as genuine believers in the 100% bible believe in all of the scriptures, then how can we come to a conclusion that God is bad, based on a biblical event that took place rather than a biblical teaching?

So it's how you think that is what counts isn't it? If we take the 100% bible, then "God is light and in Him is no darkness whatsoever" therefore if you find a troublesome text that puts God in a bad light, you have to then ask some questions such as, "then what does this text really mean, and if God is not bad, is there something I myself have not understood?"

I think it's usually an excellent question because nearly always is the bible seen as saying something bad against God when in fact He can have a greater purpose. Remember, He is acting in a system which is already a mess, therefore His intentions can't always be clear.

In an imperfect system, good actions can be seen as bad actions, for example, if a man steals food, but he is stealing it to feed his starving child, then he has a good motivation, but his actions don't seem good. It is wise to then ponder what God's motivations are, in an imperfect system. His actions can be misunderstood, even though He has a just motivation, or He has a secret knowledge, and He knows it will turn out for the good, overall.

I don't think people like you actually think about these things. Perhaps you don't realise that there are people who really do believe in what the bible says, so when it says that God is our only hope, we believe it, and we don't play little-god, by letting our opinions become god.

The controversially, inconceivably, incontrovertibly, irrefutably immutable one hath spoken!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 04-27-2012 7:01 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 15 of 722 (661262)
05-03-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
05-03-2012 2:58 PM


The problem is one of relativity.

Given this knowledge, there is only one relevant logical question to be asked; Which person's "good" is the real GOOD?. Is it Pete and his friends in group X? Or is it James and his friends in group Z? Or is it some other view?

If you are atheist and believe in relative morality, then you can't state that even though there is no ultimate morality, our God is ultimately morally bad.

Atheist Syllogism;

-There is no ULTIMATE right and wrong.
-Pete has morals X and judges God to be "wrong" or "bad" in his own book;

ERGO he concludes that God is ULTIMATELY bad and wrong.

The error is that of the law of none-contradiction. You are saying that God is ultimately bad and yet there is nothing ultimately bad.

It just doesn't work - it takes denial to pretend to yourselves that this works.

You see, only if you are ultimately morally perfect can you state that you have the say when it comes to ultimate reality. If you as Frako-none-believer have the keys to righteousness, then do share! do your morals stop you from sinning? Are you an example? Have you never lied or insulted, or even been angry and thought about angry things? Have you ever held a grudge or retaliated or spoken evil?

Our God lives in a holy place, we are told by scripture. We believe heaven, where He resides, is a place of holy perfection, a place where there is ultimately no lying or stealing or killing, therefore we have chosen in our lives to believe and trust the one who speaks from this position. It is these scriptures that describe God, which we hold as comments pertaining to God, such as, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". We TRUST and have FAITH that such scriptures are true, so we are not going to make foolish and self-righteous politically correct assertions about God, who we are told, is unfathomably great.

If you knew God this way, then you would have no reason to look into the scriptures in this narrow-minded way. It is because you do not know God, that you can't understand.

An unfathomably grate guy who kills kids, grate i dint know it was a good thing to kill kids il start killing some right away, so i might become

ight, and in Him there is no darkness at all

You see, that's an example of what you see from reading the text. You've chosen one strict way of interpreting scripture based on the position of mortality and individual rights, morals that are only fashionably new morals, modern morals that have arrived in the last few decades or so.

This is YOUR take on it, as a certain type of person, a certain group, whether your group is a minority or a majority, it is a subjective conclusion, even an ODD conclusion, trying to filter God through the human-rights system, Lol.

That's not how the bible describes God. God is gravity, that is how you should see Him.

Sure you can argue against gravity, you can say it is evil, you can even jump off a cliff in protest, but ultimately, gravity will have your ass splat.

It's the same with God - to judge God is only always error and misunderstanding. Why? Because we are told that God's understanding is unfathomable. Of course you do not understand His actions, because you do not have even 1% of His knowledge. Could you create a DNA? Could you come up with a contraflow lung?

"Trust in the Lord, and lean not on your own understanding".

Your moral conclusions about God are definitely important to you and those who share your modern morals. Soon those morals will change, maybe in a decade or so, you will not dare accuse God because in a decade it might be bible-phobic and immoral to say things bad about the bible. But those of us who trust the Lord and know Him, and how He truly is, we will still have a foundation that has not changed.

Well no i can build a plane and fly of from this gravity. But can you really say a truly grate and wonderful loving god kills people. or is there something wrong with that sentence.

If it is 100% accurate, even for the topic, then LOGICALLY, you have came to a non sequitur by saying God is no good, because christ said, "there is only one who is good, that being God".

So if the bible is 100% accurate, then it would mean that when you believe in 100% of the bible, you are obviously not going to come to the conclusion that God is not good, because many scriptures tell us that He is the source of all good.

If we as genuine believers in the 100% bible believe in all of the scriptures, then how can we come to a conclusion that God is bad, based on a biblical event that took place rather than a biblical teaching?

So it's how you think that is what counts isn't it? If we take the 100% bible, then "God is light and in Him is no darkness whatsoever" therefore if you find a troublesome text that puts God in a bad light, you have to then ask some questions such as, "then what does this text really mean, and if God is not bad, is there something I myself have not understood?"

I think it's usually an excellent question because nearly always is the bible seen as saying something bad against God when in fact He can have a greater purpose. Remember, He is acting in a system which is already a mess, therefore His intentions can't always be clear.

In an imperfect system, good actions can be seen as bad actions, for example, if a man steals food, but he is stealing it to feed his starving child, then he has a good motivation, but his actions don't seem good. It is wise to then ponder what God's motivations are, in an imperfect system. His actions can be misunderstood, even though He has a just motivation, or He has a secret knowledge, and He knows it will turn out for the good, overall.

I don't think people like you actually think about these things. Perhaps you don't realise that there are people who really do believe in what the bible says, so when it says that God is our only hope, we believe it, and we don't play little-god, by letting our opinions become god.

The controversially, inconceivably, incontrovertibly, irrefutably immutable one hath spoken!

Yea sure. I think the word good just got its meaning replaced with evil over the centuries the book would make much more sense if you swap the words.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 05-03-2012 2:58 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
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